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Re: Request for Review

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:16:21 -0500 (EST)
To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
cc: WAI AU Guidelines <w3c-wai-au@w3.org>, WAI GL <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0003131014050.4307-100000@tux.w3.org>
Hmmm. You're quite right. I advocate using map. I am not sure if I will still
have to use the DIV-based classes to get around browser bugs - I'll have a
play with it and see what I learn.

(Chaals eats some of his own dog food...)

Thanks for the feedback

Charles

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Jon Gunderson wrote:

  Charles,
  I noticed the template
  (http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/WAI-AUTOOLS-TECHS/templates/cmnMain.html) does
  not use the MAP element to indicate the navigation bar, but instead it uses
  a DIV with a CLASS="navbar".  In the past you have argued that this was the
  wrong technique, that MAP was the most appropriate markup, even though MAP
  did not render ALT text in main stream browsers like Explorer and Navigator
  when images were turned off.  
  
  Are you now advocating for using CLASS="navbar" or do you think MAP is
  still the right technique?
  
  Jon
  
  
  At 04:17 PM 3/9/00 -0500, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
  >Cross-post re-established - you others are the experts ;-)
  >
  >(I think I forgot to mention. The templates are actually from the Techniques
  >for Authoring TOol Accessibility, at
  >http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/WAI-AUTOOLS-TECHS/#check-use-accessible-templates so
  >this information will be used for the next draft of that)
  >
  >On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Nir Dagan wrote:
  >
  >  This message is sent only to AU although it is an answer to a cross post.
  >  
  >  Major comments:
  >  I think the exact purpose of these templates and style sheets should
  >  be clarified. For example I use very different style sheets for the pages 
  >  that I author and for my user style sheet. This is because I expect all 
  >  kinds of markup from arbitrary pages, while my own pages have a very 
  >  predictable (to me) structure.
  >  
  >  With an authoring tool, I would expect to have a notion of 
  >  a website or project, in which the set of HTML templates is 
  >  tied to a limited number of style sheets. 
  >
  >CMN
  >Good comment. The template there now is a basic business site (the sort of
  >thing that 10 zillion webmasters can make for a small to medium
  >business...). I will add more information about each template page or
  >project. 
  >
  >ND  
  >  It is desirable to have different alternative style sheets with 
  >  respect to a fixed set of HTML templates, emphasizing the benefits 
  >  of separating content and structure from presentation.
  >CMN
  >Hmmm. An example would be to provide Audio CSS.  
  >
  >ND
  >  Also style sheets can be made more general (applicable to more template
  sets)
  >  by restricting selectors to be only applied to things that have predefined 
  >  semantics such as HTML elements. If you use classes, it would be desirable 
  >to have 
  >  a description of the meaning of each class in some document.
  >CMN
  >Yes. Comments in the style sheet (and perhaps an "about this template
  >set" page?) would be good I think
  >
  >ND
  >  Other comments:
  >  
  >  The style sheet uses "font-size: 9pt" which is an authoring 
  >  guideline no no.
  >CMN
  >True. To be fixed.
  >
  >ND
  >  The classes "hide" and "right" are based on presentation rather than 
  >  content or structure, which may be considered bad style as far 
  >  as separating presentation from the HTML markup.
  >CMN
  >Well, it means the presentation is seperated. (You have to have the class
  >selector in there to make presentational differences other than those that
  >reflect HTML semantics...)  
  >
  >ND
  >  Maybe it would be better to use XHTML as this is 
  >  the latest W3C recommendation.
  >CMN
  >Yes. (And fortunately these template pages were hacked together in Amaya,
  >which produces XHTML *smile*)  
  
  Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
  Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
  Chair, W3C WAI User Agent Working Group
  Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
  College of Applied Life Studies
  University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
  1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820
  
  Voice: (217) 244-5870
  Fax: (217) 333-0248
  
  E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
  
  WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
  WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
  
  

--
Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 134 136
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053
Postal: GPO Box 2476V, Melbourne 3001,  Australia 
Received on Monday, 13 March 2000 10:16:24 GMT

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