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FW: card4+

From: Neff, Robert <Robert.Neff@usmint.treas.gov>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:31:51 -0500
Message-ID: <67F97DCE5F30D11185770000F67CB408015D1286@WDCSRV01.usmint.treas.gov>
To: "'w3c-wai-gl@w3.org'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: "'chisholm@trace.wisc.edu'" <chisholm@trace.wisc.edu>, "'gv@trace.wisc.edu'" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, "'ij@w3.org'" <ij@w3.org>, "'danield@w3.org'" <danield@w3.org>
To the GL Group:

Here is a comment or discussion that I put to the EO Group.  Dan prefers
this go to the GL.  My discussion is where the Page Authoring Guidleines
state

If a table is used for layout, do not use any structural markup for the
purpose of visual formatting. <wai-pageauth-tech.html#tech-table-layout>
For example, in HTML do not use the table header (TH) element to cause the
contents of a cell to be displayed centered and in bold. Other attributes of
a table, such as a caption describing the layout purpose and content of
columns is valuable, particularly if some cells become navbars, frames,
images, imagemaps, or lists of links. [Priority 1] 

And the QuickTips state
9. Tables  Avoid using tables to format text columns. Make sure cell-by-cell
reading order makes sense for tabular data. 

I would like to see an example where a Table is made with a navigation bar
on the left and text in on right where one cell is used.  Please see my
discussion below.  I feel this would clarify something (navbars and text)
that is commonly used.  I see navbars widely used and they are used in
conjuction with multiple text columns and rows.  For an example, see
www.dol.gov <http://www.dol.gov>   Please feel free to contact if anyone
would like to discuss this further.
Many thanks,  Rob Neff 

-----Original Message-----
From:	Daniel Dardailler [SMTP:danield@w3.org]
<mailto:[SMTP:danield@w3.org]> 
Sent:	Monday, February 01, 1999 4:30 AM
To:	Robert Neff
Cc:	dd@w3.org; <mailto:dd@w3.org;>  love26@gorge.net;
<mailto:love26@gorge.net;>  w3c-wai-eo@w3.org; <mailto:w3c-wai-eo@w3.org;>
US Mint - Robert Neff
Subject:	Re: card4+ 


This discussion should really happen on the GL list, not here.
I think as a rule, we should only put in this card things that really stable
in the guidelines.
		> >> In 9. we might find a shorter version of:
		> >> Organize tabular data to make sense when read cell by
cell.
		> >>
		> >> Perhaps:
		> >> Make cell by cell reading of tabular data sensible.
	> 
	> 
	> rob neff>I hate to be a stickler for redundant conversation on
this.  How
	> are we providing input to people who use tables that have two
columns? The
	> example I use is Table Width is 600 Pixels. Left column is 150 and
contains
	> navigation bars.  Right Column is 450 and uses the cell width to
contain the
	> text.
	> 
	> When I discuss with people the need  to not use tables to format
text, then
	> the next question is what about tables with navigation bars.
Designers can
	> understand not using tables to format tables, but what about
navigation bars
	> in HTML 3.2. As this is heavily used, these people need to be
provided more
	> concrete direction.
	> 
	> Please note that I do not see "in HTML 4" as the appropriate
answer,
	> because, intranets and internets are using HTML 3.2 and some will
not go to
	> IE 4.  So I need to stress, HTML 3.2 is the bridge for at least
another
	> year.  If you need more proof, some government offices will not go
to HTML
	> because they do not have the disk space for all computers and some
have
	> security fears for IE 4.  Like it or not, this is the environment.
	> 
	> On our just released redesign, I took out tables which also
decreased
	> download time, except for when the servers are slow - which is
almost always > at my former job <frown>
	> 
	> Please note my new email address above and please copy me.  My
company
	> information is now -
	> Robert Neff
	> Intranet Project Manager, US Mint
	> Robert.Neff@usmint.treas.gov <mailto:Robert.Neff@usmint.treas.gov>

	> 202.216.1614
	> 
	> P.S.  The internet web site, www.usmint.gov
<http://www.usmint.gov> , is not universally accessible
	> and we will be starting a redesign soon to address these issues,
but it
	> takes time.
Received on Monday, 1 February 1999 08:31:38 GMT

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