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Re: Proposed change to checkpoint 5.3

From: Jon Gunderson <jongund@staff.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 04:57:50 -0500
Message-Id: <199904202201.RAA06332@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
To: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
I am not making a statement supporting tables for layout.  I am just saying
that if tables are being used for layout (and they will be whether you, I
or the W3C likes it or not) that it would help if the guidelines made a
strong statement on not using TH in layout tables.  Assistive technologies
can then use this information to offer a better rendering of the
information in the table.  My recommendation is not based on any opinion of
of whether to use tables for layout or not, I just want UA to have better
information on which to make decisions on rendering.
Jon
  

At 04:06 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't think that defining a use of TH and TD that supports the abuse of
>tables will make the difference between pages being accessible or not
>accessible. I am not certain whether the presence of structural markup
>such as TH even constitutes a major accessibility barrier. It is simply
>bad authoring practise. The definitions of priorities have been applied
>strictly and consistently, and I feel that allows us to defend the
>guidelines piece by piece with ease, and that helps us defend the whole
>document. Although it means I have to live with lower priorities for
>eradicating some things I think are very bad practise, it is a trade I in
>which I think we have got the good deal.
>
>Charles McCN
>
>On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Jon Gunderson wrote:
>
>  Response to CMN by JRG:
>  Proper use of the TD and TH elements is the only concrete guidence that the
>  Web Content guidelines are currently providing for discriminating table
>  usage.  Tables will continue to be used for layout for a long time and I
>  would like to strengthen the statement to a P1 to give it a higher level of
>  priority to authors.  
>  Jon
>  
>  
>  At 01:17 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
>  >I don't think this can rate a P1. User Agents should not be playing a
>  >guessing game - tables used for layout are a temporary hack which may
>  >require users to play a guessing game while user agents do not support
>  >proper presentation mechanisms. It seems unlikely to me that the presence
>  >or absence of TH is a make or break issue for accessibility - it is only
>  >there to make a guess more educated in any case.
>  >
>  >Charles McCathieNevile
>  >
>  >On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Jon Gunderson wrote:
>  >
>  >  I would like to see a stronger statement of Priority 1 for proper use
of TD
>  >  and TH.  Based on the current Web Content guidelines this is really the
>  >  only information currently available to user agents for determining
whether
>  >  a table is being used for layout or tabular data.  Without this
information
>  >  user agents need to play a guessing game on what a table is being
used for.
>  >  Jon
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  At 11:13 AM 4/17/99 +1000, Jason White wrote:
>  >  >I concur with Charles' proposal, with the following reservations:
>  >  >
>  >  >1. The non-use of TH to convey presentational effects should have a
>  >  >priority 2 rating, as it provides a means whereby user agents can
reliably
>  >  >distinguish data tables from layout tables, and also encourages the
proper
>  >  >use of structural markup.
>  >  >
>  >  >2. I would prefer the condition that tables be used for layout only
until
>  >  >style sheet positioning is adequately supported, to be explicitly
stated
>  >  >in the checkpoint, thus making it time dependent.
>  >  >
>  >  >Eric's proposal is to similar effect. I would emphasize however that
the
>  >  >inclusion of proper structural markup is a priority 2 requirement. The
>  >  >inability to determine the structure of a document (headings, lists,
>  >  >paragraphs, etc.) is a major access barrier, as it means that the said
>  >  >structure will be evident in a visual setting (due to the
presentational
>  >  >markup comprised by the layout tables) but but not in an auditory or
>  >  >braille setting; in this fundamentally undermines the concept of equal
>  >  >access to the document. Access (at more than the minimum threshhold
level
>  >  >established by the "A" rating) involves access not only to the text,
but
>  >  >also to the structural and semantic distinctions communicated by the
>  >  >formatting. Thus, the structural markup is needed, at a priority 2
level,
>  >  >to ensure that appropriate auditory/braille/handheld-device
formatting can
>  >  >be provided by the user agent, with the aid, where possible, of style
>  >  >sheets.
>  >  > 
>  >  Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
>  >  Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
>  >  Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
>  >  University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
>  >  1207 S. Oak Street
>  >  Champaign, IL 61820
>  >  
>  >  Voice: 217-244-5870
>  >  Fax: 217-333-0248
>  >  E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
>  >  WWW:	http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
>  >  	http://www.als.uiuc.edu/InfoTechAccess
>  >  
>  >
>  >--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
>  >phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
>  >W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
>  >MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
>  > 
>  Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
>  Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
>  Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
>  University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
>  1207 S. Oak Street
>  Champaign, IL 61820
>  
>  Voice: 217-244-5870
>  Fax: 217-333-0248
>  E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
>  WWW:	http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
>  	http://www.als.uiuc.edu/InfoTechAccess
>  
>
>--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
>phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
>MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
> 
Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street
Champaign, IL 61820

Voice: 217-244-5870
Fax: 217-333-0248
E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
WWW:	http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
	http://www.als.uiuc.edu/InfoTechAccess
Received on Tuesday, 20 April 1999 18:01:16 GMT

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