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Re: Proposed conclusion of null alt text debate

From: Chris Ridpath <chris.ridpath@utoronto.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:59:31 -0400
Message-ID: <00fb01bec16e$72c79b80$b040968e@wilddog.ic.utoronto.ca>
To: <w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org>, "Leonard R. Kasday" <kasday@acm.org>
This is a good summary Len. Let's hope the WCAG folks can provide some
clarity on these issues.

There are the related issues regarding images used for bullets and
horizontal rules. You mentioned that in a small survey in 1997 there were
inconclusive results about which ALT text to use in these cases. Should we
try to run the survey again and hope to get more conclusive results? Could
we ask the WCAG people for their input?

Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard R. Kasday <kasday@acm.org>
To: w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org <w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org>
Date: Friday, June 25, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: Proposed conclusion of null alt text debate


>Like I mentioned, I'm going to be forwarding questions and comments on the
>guidelines to the web content author guideline [WCAG] folks.  I'd like to
>see how much we can wrap up the discussion of null "" and blank " " alt
>text.  We don't think we need to come to consesus: WCAG has final say
>anyway.  In fact, it's good to show both sides of difficult to resolve
issues.
>
> So I'm going to list what I sense we agree on, and issues where we still
>differ.  Once we satisfied that all points of view are represented, I'm
>going to send it over.  Of course, if we do reach a consensus that would be
>even better.
>
>The following discussion runs through the tread started at
>
>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/1999Jun/0023.html
>
>
>Here's my proposed summary. It includes some new things that I realized as
>I wrote the summary: I've enclosed these in brackets [ ] to avoid sneaking
>in something in this "summary".
>
>
> It includes the term null alt text to mean
>
>ALT=""    i.e. quote quote
>
>and blank alt text to mean
>
>ALT=" "  i.e. quote space quote.
>
>
>There was a lot of discussion about Technique 5.6.1.
>
>http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#style-alignment
>
> It was interpreted to mean that blank alt text " " is forbidden but null
>alt text "" is allowed.  Several people pointed out that blank alt text is
>not good HTML: browers are allowed to ignore leading and trailing space,
>and in fact the HTML spec says that it "should" not be used.  However, it
>was argued that these guidelines should only address things that impact
>accessibility.
>
>[However, 5.6.1 doesn't explicitly forbid blank alt text.  All it says is
>that "Authors should not use spaces for the value of "alt" to prevents the
>words from running together when the image is not loaded".  So first of
>all, it only applies to this special case.  Also, the example is
>alt="&nbsp;&nbsp;" which is an entirely different thing].
>
>So the questions to WCAG are:
>
>a. Is blank alt text " " forbidden always? If so  Why?
>b. Is blank alt text " "  forbidden for purposes of spacing text apart?  If
>so, why?
>c. Is "&nbsp;&nbsp;" forbidden always? If so, Why?
>d. Is "&nbsp;&nbsp;" forbidden for purposes of spacing text apart? If so,
Why?
>
>Another suggestion was that blank alt text be used for spacers " " because
>that coveys the meaning of a space.  Objections to this were the "bad HTML"
>argument used above, and also that it contradicts 5.6.1.
>
>The following applies to checkpoint 13.1 which requires meaningful text in
>a link
>
>Suggestion to WCAG:  allow null alt text in links in certain circumstances,
>per following rules:
>
>    If the image is the only item in the link
>    and there is no other usable link to that item on the page,
>    then neither null or blank alt text is allowed.
>
>    for example,
>
>    <A href="foo.html">  <img alt="" src=...> </A>
>    is illegal if no other link on the page points to foo.html.
>
>
>    However, if usable text or image with meaningful alt text is
>    included in the link, then null alt text is allowed.  E.g. the
>    following are legal.
>
>    <A href="foo.html">  <img alt="" src=...> prices </A>
>    <A href="foo.html">  <img alt="prices" ...><img alt="" src=...> </A>
>
>
>There's another situation on which so far at least we didn't reach
>consensus: the case where an image and text which are visually adjacent
>point to the same url.  Examples are images which are bullets or images, as
>in www.whitehouse.gov. This is very common on the web.  Sometimes these
>pages can be rewritten to give a similar visual appearance with image and
>text as part of the same link, but this may not always be possible, e.g. if
>tables are used for layout.
>
>It was suggested that null alt text be allowed in such cases for the image
>to avoid tiresome redundancy where every link gets spoken twice.  On the
>other hand, it was argued that some browsers would reveal that there's a
>link there, e.g. lynx with certain options such as lynx -number_links
>-hiddenlinks=merge [or using the l command].  [possibly also browsers like
>pwwebspeak or home page reader] It was argued that a user would lose
>confidence in the pages accessibility to hear links without ALT text.
>
>On the other hand, [under some circumstances] the links would be invisible,
>and could  can be switched off at users discretion, in some cases by
>turning off speaking pronunciation [or by turning off the lynx options
>mentioned above].
>
>Question to WCAG: to allow or not allow null alt text for this
circumstance.
>
>
>A final issue to WGAG
>
>In the deprecaed [put presumably allowable] example in 5.6.1, "spacer" is
>used for alt text of a spacer element. There was objection this since it
>was felt to just clutter up speech  [and contractions the recommendation of
>using null alt text earlier in 5.6.1]
>
>
>------------------
>I'm going to be away from my email till thursday (will be at RESNA).  I
>want to give people a chance to respond to this before claiming it's our
>final comments. So I'll just send a heads up to WCAG with a pointer to the
>archived mail, and send the "official" one next week when I get back,
>updating with any comments.
>
>I will try to fold in any comments that come today into a revised version
>of this to which I can point WCAG.
>
>Len
>-------
>Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>Universal Design Engineer, Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>Adjunct Professor, Electrical Engineering
>Temple University
>
>Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>kasday@acm.org
>(215} 204-2247 (voice)
>(800) 750-7428 (TTY)
Received on Monday, 28 June 1999 10:01:20 GMT

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