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RDFCore WG minutes for the Telecon 2002-06-28

From: Eric Miller <em@w3.org>
Date: 02 Jul 2002 13:44:01 -0500
To: w3c-rdfcore-wg@w3.org
Message-Id: <1025635442.30603.260.camel@birch>

RDFCore WG minutes for the Telecon 2002-06-28

Transcript:
  http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc.txt 
  http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc.rdf
  http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc.html
 
  .txt attached

Agenda:
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0281.html

1: Volunteer scribe

  Eric Miller

2: Roll Call

Participants:
    - Brian McBride (chair)
    - Jeremy Carrol
    - Dan Brickley
    - Eric Miller
    - Dave Beckett
    - Ron Daniel
    - Bill dehOra
    - Jos De Roo
    - Jan Grant
    - Graham Klyne
    - Stephen Petschulat
    - Patrick Stickler
    - Aaron Swartz
    - Mike Dean
    - Pat Hayes

Regrets:
    - R.V. Guha
    - Frank Manola


New Action Items - 

ACTION: jjc, write a message about possible bug in guha's option #2 in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0205.html 

 context: http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc#T14-47-1415:24:46

ACTION: bwm, get editors together, review content of
http://www.ninebynine.org/wip/RDF-basics/Current/Overview.htm

 context: http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc#T15-17-49


Resolved - 

RESOLVED: bwm to send
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0266.html out
to list @@ which list? www-rdf-interest i believe


3: Review Agenda

  no additions to agenda


4: Next telecon?

  agreed: 10am Boston Time, Jul 5 2002


5: Review Minutes of 2002-06-14

  @@ note: no minutes ???


6) Minutes of F2F

  http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20020617-f2f/


7) outstanding issues - 1 left
     rdfs-xml-schema-datatypes


8) Reviewing XMLP last call

Danbri and DaveB have agreed to work on this (others interested e.g.
jjc, path, gk to email list)


9) F2F Review


10) Procedure for determining reserved vocabulary
    
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0205.html


ACTION: jjc, write a message about possible bug in guha's option #2 in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0205.html


11) Datatypes

Propose approve sending the draft 2 datatypes message requesting input<
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0266.html


Resolved: bwm to send
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0266.html out
to list @@ which list? www-rdf-interest i believe

against - patrick, abstain - danc, agree - rest of the group


12) Review outline of new document.

We have to decide whether writing this document continues to make sense.
    
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0199.html

ACTION: bwm, get editors together, review content of
http://www.ninebynine.org/wip/RDF-basics/Current/Overview.htm


13) Issue: xml:base

Feedback from the URI group - thread starting

   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2002Apr/0025.html

@@ did not get to


-- begin IRC log

14:01:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfcore
14:01:41 <AaronSw> Zakim, Bristol has JanG, DaveB
14:01:42 <Zakim> +JanG, DaveB; got it
14:01:43 <Zakim> +??P15
14:01:43 <Zakim> +EricM
14:01:54 <Zakim> +??P16
14:01:59 <AaronSw> Zakim, ??P15 is RonD
14:02:00 <Zakim> +RonD; got it
14:02:07 <AaronSw> zakim, ??P16 is HP
14:02:08 <Zakim> +HP; got it
14:02:13 <AaronSw> zakim, HP has Jeremy, Brian
14:02:15 <Zakim> +Jeremy, Brian; got it
14:02:20 <AaronSw> zakim, Bristol is ILRT
14:02:21 <Zakim> +ILRT; got it
14:02:23 <AaronSw> zakim, who's here?
14:02:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see PatH?, ILRT, AaronSw, GrahamK,
EricM, RonD, HP
14:02:25 <Zakim> HP has Jeremy, Brian
14:02:25 <Zakim> ILRT has JanG, DaveB
14:02:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, em, bwm, danbri, Zakim,
logger_1, AaronSw
14:02:46 <AaronSw> zakim, ericm is em
14:02:47 <bwm_> bwm_ has joined #rdfcore
14:02:47 <Zakim> +Em; got it
14:03:02 <bwm_> -
14:03:13 <AaronSw> zakim, brian is bwm
14:03:15 <Zakim> sorry, AaronSw, I do not recognize a party named
'brian'
14:03:21 <AaronSw> zakim, Brian is bwm
14:03:22 <Zakim> sorry, AaronSw, I do not recognize a party named
'Brian'
14:03:36 <AaronSw> zakim, propose a victim
14:03:38 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I
propose JanG
14:03:51 <AaronSw> when bwm talks it seems
14:03:54 <Zakim> +??P14
14:04:04 <AaronSw> zakim, ??P14 is JosD 
14:04:06 <Zakim> +JosD; got it
14:04:38 <AaronSw> zakim, who's here?
14:04:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see PatH?, ILRT, AaronSw, GrahamK, Em,
RonD, HP, JosD
14:04:40 <Zakim> HP has Jeremy, Brian
14:04:41 <Zakim> ILRT has JanG, DaveB
14:04:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see bwm_, RRSAgent, em, bwm, danbri, Zakim,
logger_1, AaronSw
14:04:50 <Zakim> +PatrickS
14:04:55 <jjc> jjc has joined #rdfcore
14:05:33 <em-scribe> -- roll call -- (see zakim above list)
14:05:59 <em-scribe> bwm: regrets, -> frank, guha
14:06:14 <em-scribe> review agenda...
14:06:19 <em-scribe> comments? 
14:06:21 <em-scribe> no
14:06:38 <connolly> connolly has joined #rdfcore
14:07:21 <em-scribe> next telecon - Jul 12 (same time)
14:07:39 <em-scribe> hmm... perhaps i hit return too early...
14:08:00 <em-scribe> strike above
14:08:05 <em-scribe> next telecon - Jul 5 (same time)
14:08:16 <JosD> JosD has joined #rdfcore
14:08:31 <em-scribe> regrets as well from danbri
14:09:06 <em-scribe> bwm_: chase down danbri for notes
14:09:13 <Zakim> +??P18
14:09:25 <AaronSw> zakim, ??P18 is SteveP
14:09:27 <Zakim> +SteveP; got it
14:09:40 <AaronSw> heh
14:09:48 <em-scribe> bwm_: made a lot of good progress
14:09:56 <em-scribe> bwm_: XMLP review
14:10:06 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
14:10:07 <em-scribe> bwm_: danbri and dave have agreed to work on this
14:12:01 <em-scribe> jjc: perhaps i'll look into this as well
14:13:47 <em-scribe> bwm_: danbri to coordinate comments (include
danbri, daveb)
14:13:57 <mdean> mdean has joined #rdfcore
14:15:26 <Zakim> +DanBri
14:16:09 <em-scribe> agenda: F2F Review
14:16:12 <Zakim> +DanC
14:16:34 <em-scribe> em-scribe: can you explain the purpose of the new
suggested doc
14:17:24 <em-scribe> gk: there was various issues that seemed to be
missing from various docs and this was supposed to be something that
addressed this?
14:19:28 <em-scribe> gk: from f2f meeting we agreed that there was
content that was not captured by exisitig docs
14:19:41 <connolly> anybody got an example of one of these "not captured
by MT/syntax/schema" things?
14:20:02 <em-scribe> gk: agreed to (a) produce an outline a (b)
supporting text that trys to agree to provide some text to this
14:21:25 <em-scribe> bwm_: we where having a discussion of where oto but
the specification of the graph systax
14:24:18 <jjc> eric: datatypes tidy or untidy
14:24:36 <DanC> "The WG decided to aim for last call on 26th Aug 2002"
<- ugh; so we need *another* extension, past Sep 2002. oh well, the Sep
2002 thing never quite got finished anyway.
14:24:40 <jjc> bwm: guha gave new analysis of datatype problem
14:25:07 <jjc> bwm: decision made that bwm would write note on
tidy/unitdy issue
14:25:48 <DanC> oops; there it is: "# log  The WG decided that a
description of RDF(S) semantics in Lbase should be added as a
non-normative appendix to the model theory document (provided it is
ready in time) which should be renamed RDF Formal Semantics (or
similar). Lbase will be published as a w3c note."
14:25:52 <jjc> eric: lbase?
14:26:34 <jjc> bwm: w3c note from ??? , not from the WG
14:27:58 <danbri> I have a rough cut of a note-ified lbase doc,
http://www.w3.org/2002/06/lbase/ ("not a note")
14:29:17 <DanC> but their views are wrong! 1/2 :-)
14:31:03 <DanC> we need explicit license from anybody listed as "editor"
to release this particular text under their name.
14:31:24 <sergey> sergey has joined #rdfcore
14:31:49 <sergey> Hi, sorry, today I'm on IRC only...
14:33:32 <DanC> Hi sergey, I think we're on "9) F2F Review" still.
14:34:37 <em-scribe> agenda - Procedure for determining reserved
vocabulary
14:35:00 <em-scribe> bwm_: can we do this without guha? he did send
message about 3 options
14:35:14 <em-scribe> JosD: very unsure at the moment
14:35:31 <em-scribe> JosD: note that euler does not need such a thing
14:35:57 <DanC> guha's msg:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0205.html
14:36:43 <em-scribe> DanC (daveb) : i hate all of these; but if we have
to pick one lets use the one from the original spec
14:37:04 <danbri> or at least the same technique, though we have a
different meaning and I'd expect a different URI
14:37:05 <em-scribe> which is #1 (with http://www....)
14:38:53 <DanC> we haven't made any decisions on this issue, Graham;
rejecting or otherwise.
14:41:18 <danbri> example:
http://www.w3.org/2002/unassertionalproperty/http://mymetadatainitiative.example.com/entails
14:45:43 <DanC> I'd prefer to just fess up and change RDF/xml syntax,
rather than sneak it into a magic worm-hole in URI space.
14:46:04 <em-scribe> bwm_: i'm hearing a weak preference for #2 (with
this prefix... ala :
http://www.w3.org/2002/unassertionalproperty/http://mymetadatainitiative.example.com/entails) take this to list for dsicussion
14:47:13 <JosD> DanC,  I agree with that; we did a test with owl_:
prefixes, but still...
14:47:14 <em-scribe> ACTION: jjc, write a message about possible bug in
guha's option #2 in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0205.html
14:47:46 <em-scribe> agendaitem - Datatypes
14:49:58 <DanC> er... whoa... if A is noise, I don't know what's going
on, and the best I can do is abstain on this.
14:50:10 <DanC> pointer to this bit of magic from guha?
14:51:59 <em-scribe> propose: bwm to send
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0266.html out
to list
14:52:23 <em-scribe> ron: is it an important use of our chairs time to
keep rewriting this?
14:55:33 <em-scribe> against - patrick
14:55:39 <em-scribe> abstain - danc
14:55:45 <em-scribe> rest agree
14:55:54 <em-scribe> teleconference extension?
14:56:00 <em-scribe> for 15 min?
14:56:03 <em-scribe> ok
14:56:16 <em-scribe> agenda item - Review outline of new document.
14:57:21 <em-scribe> gk: get material on material on the table and then
figure out if and where this belogs
14:58:14 <DanC> skimming it, I like the structure... stuff like "2.2.3
Extensible URI-based vocabulary" is good to have around.
15:01:21 <em-scribe> q+
15:01:38 <JosD> DanC, re pointer to Guha magic
http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2002-06-18.html#T10-25-37
15:02:16 <em-scribe> q-
15:02:36 <DanC> if having the matter-of-fact discussion of containers in
this document would allow the primer to get radically shorter, I'm all
for that.
15:07:46 <em-scribe> q+
15:08:43 <bwm_> ack em-scribe
15:09:59 <DanC> when the community was small and everybody knew why we
were doing various technologies in the specs, sparse formal docs were
the shortest route to the target. I now think the community is large
enough that a certain amount of design principles is cost-effective.
15:10:40 <AaronSw> i'd be happy with a primer that did "make an rdf
thing in 15 min" as part 1 and saved part 2 for the discursive material
15:10:47 <AaronSw> but give them the instant gratification first
15:10:57 <DanC> yes, the primer should be about instant gratification
15:11:21 <AaronSw> K&R works this way, for example. chapter 1 is a
tutorial, then it gets deeper with each successive chapter
15:11:46 <bwm_> thats a nice model
15:14:08 <Zakim> -SteveP
15:14:10 <DanC> yes, let's lock ericm and Graham in a corner until they
come out happy
15:14:23 <AaronSw> i'm all about an RDF QuickStartGuide ala
http://logicerror.com/taxo-quick-start
15:14:34 <DanC> Zakim, mute me
15:14:36 <Zakim> DanC should now be muted
15:15:29 <AaronSw> i still hear the racing cars
15:16:23 <DanC> Zakim, unmute me
15:16:25 <Zakim> DanC should no longer be muted
15:17:49 <em-scribe> ACTION: bwm, get editors together, review content
of http://www.ninebynine.org/wip/RDF-basics/Current/Overview.htm
15:18:11 <em-scribe> bwm_: meeting adjourned
15:18:18 <Zakim> -JosD
15:18:27 <Zakim> -DanBri
15:18:35 <em-scribe> after hours discussions.....
15:18:38 <Zakim> -Em
15:18:41 <Zakim> -RonD
15:21:00 <em> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:21:00 <RRSAgent> See
http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc#T15-21-00
15:22:30 <bwm__> bwm__ has joined #rdfcore
15:24:46 <em> RRSAgent, please leave.
15:24:46 <RRSAgent> I see 2 action items:
15:24:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jjc, write a message about possible bug in
guha's option #2 in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0205.html [1]
15:24:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc#T14-47-14
15:24:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: bwm, get editors together, review content of
http://www.ninebynine.org/wip/RDF-basics/Current/Overview.htm [2]
15:24:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc#T15-17-49

-- end IRC log http://www.w3.org/2002/06/28-rdfcore-irc.txt

-- 
eric miller                              http://www.w3.org/people/em/
semantic web activity lead               http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
w3c world wide web consortium            http://www.w3.org/
Received on Tuesday, 2 July 2002 13:42:12 EDT

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