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Re: Semantic Web as Pragmatic Web

From: <leo@mgn.ru>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 21:14:55 +0500 (YEKT)
Message-ID: <3187.10.0.2.224.1198599295.mgnwebinterface@mail.mgn.ru>
To: "Alexander Zelitchenko" <zelitchenk@yahoo.com>
Cc: editor@content-wire.com, semantic-web@w3.org

Alexander,
Indeed from the Semiotics point of view Semantics and Pragmatics are
included into with proper meaning. I wrote about it already in the
"3. Mid-range objectives" part of my paper "To keep abreast of the 21st 
century" - http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/21abreast.htm .
Except the Semiotics some more fundamental ideas are pointed out in the
paper. Suppose they must be taken into account in the Future IT too.

Leonid Ototsky - http://paterleo.wikispces.com

> Let us continue.
>
>   I share your vision, that sw uses too old ideas of AI and invests in
> them too big efforts. Of course, the initial aim was to cover
> applications, where there are no explicit formal (mathematical, logical
> etc.) models of reality, but after now near half-century of experience
> with AI it had to be more or less clear from the very beginning - where
> its methods work and how they work. But you are right also in your
> second observation - big investments in old ideas make it difficult (and
> not only psychologically) to be unfaithful to them.
>
>   What about the future of Pragmatic Web, this will be determined only by
> its success in resolving practical tasks and developing application in
> the scopes, where traditional approach did not work. But I see pw as
> continuation of sw, next step in our understanding what methods work and
> what does not work with transformation of texts into meanings. And in
> this perspective I do not see real big problem if some efforts with
> modern mode in sw will demonstrate a limitations which are more than
> their authors expected.
>
>
>
>
> editor@content-wire.com wrote:
>       Thanks
>
>   One more thought from me: re.the fact that sw is appropriate for high
> formality environments
>   (I think you mean data which has been tagged/formatted in a certain way)
> I am not sure if thats is the way it is intended in the first place, or
> it is just happening like that because that's what people have managed
> to come up with so far. Admittedly, a lot of what is done in sw today is
> heavily influenced by
>   computer science paradigms, which tend to become obsolete so quickly
> these days... the technology 'markets' however function following rather
> lengthy 'commercial cycles', so after investing so much on some things,
> they are very reluctant to scrap their plans before their products come
> to maturity etc...
>   ..even if we all agree that is what needs to be done... somehow I think
> the IT industry is between
>   the vision and the visionaries.....so I understand if the pw want to cut
> out a little corner for themselves where they want to invent their own
> world anew where they do not have to live with the 'real world'
> constraints - it would be a pity if all the efforts being put in sw
> today would not benefit from the freshest thinking because of some
> structural systemic limitation of the way things are done
>
>    Surely if the technologies that will be coming ahead will enable us to
> do without all this rdf/owl business trouble, and be able to reason and
> infer and support logic using natural languages, I think that would be
> a great leap forward - whatever it is going to be called..sw/pw whatnot
>
>   I ll start thinking of a defintion for pw,
>   best wishes
>   PDM
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Alexander Zelitchenko
>   To: editor@content-wire.com
>   Cc: semantic-web@w3.org
>   Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 3:17 PM
>   Subject: Re: Semantic Web as Pragmatic Web
>
>
>   Thank you, Paola;
>
>   To continue our exchange of views, I'd like to say that I see natural
> development of PW as part of natural development of SW. In fact, most
> important thing is the set of tasks which may be resolved in framework
> of given approach. Obviously, 'classic' approach of SW is appropriate
> for some class of problems with high formality and low uncertainty and
> variability, which are usually introduced by the factor of "natural
> human psychology'. Obviously, out of this class SW need to develop other
> and perhaps more specific approaches. Some of them must be called
> 'Pragmatic Web'. I do not afraid (at least for the present moment) fuzzy
> definitions of what you call 'my pragmatic web', because the value of
> each approach and each definition here depend on how powerful web tool
> this approach creates. In other words, each approach must prove its
> usefulness and must find its own scope of application. I see this is as
> the only way to clarify what is 'real PW".
>
>   But in any case, I think it would be very useful to exchange by
> preliminary personal definitions of 'what must be called PW'
>
>   AZ
>
>   P.S. By the way I also have no yet moderator approval from PW web-site
> and mailing list. Maybe  Christmas time is reason?
>
> editor@content-wire.com wrote:
>           Alexander
>   thanks a lot for your thoughts
>   My idea behind the semantic web corresponds to what we are now starting
> to call the pragmatic web
>   except that 'semantic web' was the name given at the time
>   Also my ideas of what the pragmatic web is/can be/will be is slightly
> different from your description, and slightly different from what the
> manifesto says
>
>   I would say that we could start by creating a definition, or set of
> definitions that we can all agree on
>   (otherwise it will be 'my pragmatic web')
>
>   Regarding the technology, I do think that futures gen web technologies
> will evolve towards what is currently defined as pw, but I do perceive
> that as a natural evolution of the sw and maybe therefore
>   will require a terminology adaptation ie name change
>
>   finally I do think that from the pw vision a few pointers should come to
> help untangle the current struggles and knots that we are in the sw - as
> a lot of the problems that we may get stuck into today may not be
> central to what is ahead - but this can only happen if we open up the
> debate to all interested parties
>   (I still have not received the mail confirmation from the pw mailing
> list! is it implicit? is anyone else on that list who could kindly nudge
> the list moderators on my behalf? thanks)
>
>   more to talk I guess...
>   cheers
>
>   PDM
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Alexander Zelitchenko
>   To: editor@content-wire.com
>   Cc: semantic-web@w3.org
>   Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:16 PM
>   Subject: Re: Semantic Web as Pragmatic Web
>
>
>     I'll simply try to explain my vision of your questions.
>
> 1. What does 'pragmatic web' mean, as opposed to 'semantic web?'
> (is it just another buzzword, or does it better convey the meaning of
> what is intended?
>
>   I use 'pragmatic web' not like synonym for 'semantic web'. Pragmatic web
> is subset of semantic web, where the practically infinite set of
> classes, traits, relations, attributes and so on is limited in effective
> way by intentions of web-participants.
>
>   The second moment seems to be very important is that 'real ontology' is
> determined in pragmatic web in process of INTERACTION (between 2 human
> participants, as it is in "Manifest of pragmatic Web group" or between
> dialog wizard and one human participant in the article, which I propose
> to your attention).
>
>   2. Are semantic web technologies, as we are developing them today,
> going to be capable of delivering 'pragmatic' capabilities (that is
> are they going to be capable of supporting context sensitive
> reasoning?If not, what is missing)
>
>   I do not think, that they are capable. There are a lot of things, which
> are well known to cognitive psychologists, but are missed in present
> approaches. First is experience. All human semantic is based on human
> experience (internal images of the world, as the world is represented
> namely by this person). The second thing is that human semantic is
> always semantic of acting human being with his aims, intentions,
> repertoir of actions and so on. The third thing is that human system for
> processing of meanings is multilevel one, where different levels use not
> exactly same principles of processing. There is also even more
> metaphysical 'fourth' principle of human semantic - "making of senses",
> but they must be discussed separately.
>
>   3. What kind of vision is there for the pragmatic web, what
> technologies?
>
>   Pragmatic Web may include some thing (like seeing Web participant as
> acting persons, for example) into consideration and actively use
> man-machine interaction to clarifying 'real semantic'.
>
> 4. How would the vision for the pragmatic web fit into the vision for
> the semantic web?
>
>   Semantic Web today is philosophy and technology. Pragmatic Web is part
> of the same philosophy, but propose quite different technology.
> Technology of semantic web works well only in very formal application.
> The more application informal the less semantic web technology is
> appropriate. On the contrary, pragmatic web is addressed to wide range
> of 'non-formal' applications. Thus relationships between these 2 classes
> of technologies must resulted in each of them will be used for its own
> tasks.
>
>
>   See also
>
>
> http://www.pragmaticweb.info/
>
> Here the Pragmatic Web manifesto:
>
> http://www.wi1.uni-hohenheim.de/Publikationen/2006/PragWebManifesto.pdf
>
>
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Alexander Zelitchenko
>   To: semantic-web@w3.org
>   Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 4:12 PM
>   Subject: Re: Semantic Web as Pragmatic Web
>
>
>   Dear Adrian;
>
>   Thank you too much. I read their manifest and do see that there are some
> co-thinking. Their main idea of human interaction, based on interactors'
> aims, to develop common ontology in specific field of mutual interest
> seems to be rather strong. Their criticism in respect of common Semantic
> Web restriction is quite precise. I defenetely will trace their activity
> and try to show them my vision. Once again - thank you.
>
>   With best regards
>   Alexander
>
>
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Received on Tuesday, 25 December 2007 16:15:04 GMT

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