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Re: Minutes: XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Telcon 18 March 2008

From: Yi Wang <yiwang@obj-sys.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:16:12 -0500
Message-ID: <47E9254C.3060206@obj-sys.com>
To: George Cowe <gcowe@origoservices.com>
CC: public-xsd-databinding@w3.org

Hi George,

Thanks for updating the example. There is another issue with this 
example - echoQualifiedLocalElements.wsdl is not valid. The attribute 
'element' in message part 'echoQualifiedLocalElementsRequest' refers to 
element 'ex:echoQualifiedLocalElements' which is not defined within the 
WSDLfile. It was validated unsuccessfully using XMLSpy 2008. The WSDL 
files in the following examples have similar problem:

     BlockDefault
     IncludeRelative
     QualifiedLocalAttributes
     UnqualifiedLocalElements
     UnqualifiedLocalAttributes
     ImportNamespace
     ImportSchemaNamespace
     ImportSchema
     ImportTypesNamespace
     FinalDefault
     SchemaVersion
     SOAPEncodedArray
     TargetNamespace
     NoTargetNamespace

     ElementTypeDefaultNamespace (namespace prefix missing from the 
built-in type )

Regards,
Yi Wang
Objective Systems


George Cowe wrote:
> I have updated the QualifiedLocalElements example so that it actually contains some qualified local elements!
>
> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/09/QualifiedLocalElements/
>
> For resolution of last call issue lc-xsd-9 (reference to Section 2.1.2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding-comments/2008Feb/0000.html )
>
> George
>
>
>  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-xsd-databinding-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xsd-databinding-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of paul.downey@bt.com
> Sent: 19 March 2008 11:35
> To: public-xsd-databinding@w3.org
> Subject: Minutes: XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Telcon 18 March 2008
>
>
> are now available:
>
> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/8/3/18-databinding-minutes.html
>
> and copied below:
>
>
>                                                              - DRAFT -
>
>                                   XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Working Group Teleconference
>
> 18 Mar 2008
>
>    See also: IRC log
>
> Attendees
>
>    Present
>           Jon Calladine (BT)
>           George Cowe (Origo Services Limited)
>           Paul Downey (BT)
>           Yves Lafon (W3C)
>
>    Regrets
>    Chair
>           pauld
>
>    Scribe
>           pauld
>
> Contents
>
>      * Topics
>          1. Patterns Detection
>          2. ISSUE-2: test suite
>          3. Charter Renewal?
>          4. Status of Basic Patterns
>          5. Last Call comments from Schema WG
>          6. lc-xsd-5
>          7. lc-xsd-6
>          8. lc-xsd-7
>          9. lc-xsd-8
>         10. lc-xsd-9
>         11. lc-xsd-10
>         12. lc-xsd-11 Editorial Concerns
>         13. Status of Publication
>      * Summary of Action Items
>      ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>    minutes from 2008-3-11 teleconference 2008-2-19 teleconference approved
>
>   Patterns Detection
>
>    pauld: built annotation
>    ... see the examples and collection pages
>
>    gcowe: will look at optionally adding it to the service
>
>    http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/09/DateAttribute/
>
>   ISSUE-2: test suite
>
>    gcowe: the XBinder guys picked up an old copy of the testsuite and sent results
>
>    pauld: cool!
>
>    gcowe: we've added a load more tests, so I sent them a new copy
>
>    pauld: that's great. Many thanks!
>    ... collection is now checked in with annotation!
>    ... what's next for the test suite?
>
>    gcowe: not a lot, we've run the tools we can, half the toolkits missing, Adrian had the ability to run them
>
>    pauld: but for basic, how do we stand?
>
>    <gcowe> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/report/basic.html
>
>    pauld: I can rerun SOAP4R and ZSI, can someone help with WCF
>
>    <Yves> I am doing gsoap c and c++
>
>   Charter Renewal?
>
>    pauld: dependent on publishing Last Call documents
>
>    yves: we should be able to ask for another six months
>
>   Status of Basic Patterns
>
>    pauld: thanks George for the work on differencing
>    ... status section needs updating further
>
>   Last Call comments from Schema WG
>
>    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding-comments/2008Feb/0000.html
>
>   lc-xsd-5
>
>    * Schema documents vs. schemas: Following up on the point above, there are
>    schema documents that do not stand on their own in defining a schema
>    that's useful for validation. For example, if a schema document merely
>    defines a complext Type T as being derived by extension from type B with
>    attribute A, then you don't really know what the type is until you find
>    the base type B, and that may well be in a different schema document.
>    Maybe there is element content in effective type T. If there is an
>    element E declared of type T, then what does the requirement to "[expose]
>    all of the [XML 1.0] element node and attribute node content described by
>    the originating [XML Schema 1.0] document" mean? The problem is that it's
>    not really schema documents that directly call for or don't call for
>    content in documents to be validated. Schema documents contribute to the
>    construction of a schema (formally defined at [4]), which in turn contains
>    element declarations, etc. that can be used to require or allow content
>    in documents to be validated. >>It seems that some serious thought is
>    needed as to whether it's schema documents or schemas that would conform
>    to the databinding specification.<< In any case, referring to the
>    element or attribute content "described by a schema document" is not just
>    too informal; as suggested above, it's likely that you really want to
>    talk about the element or attribute content allowed by a schema.
>    Conversely, you could more clearly define a set of rules relating to
>    individual schema documents if that's what you really intend.
>
>    pauld: this is related to the infoset (v) document issue. It would be much harder to write test tools for this
>
>    yves: we're testing for bytes on the wire, not at the infoset level
>
>    pauld: the only way I could see this working is if they had an XML format for their infoset or even the PSVI
>    ... anyone want to support this comment?
>
>    *crickets*
>
>    RESOLUTION: lc-xsd-5 rejected
>
>   lc-xsd-6
>
>    * Section 1.4 says that conformance requires that an implementation: "MUST
>    be able to consume any well-formed [XML 1.0] document which satisfies
>    local-schema validity against the originating [XML Schema 1.0] document
>    exposing all of the [XML 1.0] element node and attribute node content in
>    the data model." Again, local-schema validity is not a relation defined
>    on the pair {instance, schema document}, it is (presuming you indicate
>    which type or element declaration to start with) defined on the pair
>    {instance, schema}"
>    http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/basic/basic.html#assert-ProduceXML
>
>    pauld: anyone feel like they have better words for this assertion?
>
>    *crickets*
>
>    gcowe: let's ask them for better text!
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: pdowney to ask the Schema WG for advice [recorded in
>    http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
>
>    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-129 - Ask the Schema WG for advice [on Paul Downey - due 2008-03-25].
>
>    pauld: so we accept the comment, but don't have the skills to address it to schema WG's satisfaction
>
>   lc-xsd-7
>
>    * Section 2: "The [XPath 2.0] expression is located from an [XML Schema
>    1.0] element node which may be the document element, or an element
>    contained inside an [XML 1.0] document such as [WSDL 2.0] description."
>
>    It's not quite clear what is meant in saying that an "[XPath 2.0]
>    expression is located from". Is this trying to establish the "Context
>    Node" for the XPath expression as being the node of the <xsd:schema>
>    element? If so, we recommend you say that more clearly, preferably with
>    hyperlinks to the pertinent parts of the XPath Recommendation. Also, the
>    phrase "may not" can be read as prohibiting the case where the element
>    note is the document node. I suspect you meant "need not". Finally, [XML
>    Schema 1.0] element node isn't a term that appears in the XSD
>    Recommendation; did you mean the "root element information item of the
>    schema document"?
>
>    pauld: accept "need not" change to text
>    ... suggest a note to say "this is to establish the Context node for the XPath expression"
>    ... seems reasonable to link to the XPath recommedation
>
>    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-7 with suggested text changes
>
>   lc-xsd-8
>
>    * Sections 2.x: The phrase "An [XML 1.0] document exibits the XXXXX
>    pattern...." is used repeatedly in these sections and their descendents.
>    See comments about about need to refer to "schema documents", if that's
>    what's intended.
>
>    pauld: looks like the documents (v) infoset comment again
>
>    yves: is that the instance document?
>
>    pauld: we could be clearer that it's a WSDL 1.0, 2.0, Schema, whatever, but balooning the boilerplate isn't desirable
>    ... we already have "2.1 Schema Element
>
>    The xs:schema element MAY be the document element, but MAY also appear within other descriptions such as a [WSDL 2.0] or
>    [WSDL 1.1] document. /-"
>
>    yves: text tied up better to the "An [XML 1.0] document exhibits the"
>
>    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-5 as requiring clarification
>
>   lc-xsd-9
>
>    http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xmlschema-patterns-20071031/#group-SchemaElement
>
>    * Section 2.1.2: talks about qualified local elements, but the sample
>    schema contains no local elements.
>
>    pauld: we could change the example to include local elements
>
>    gcowe: what does that mean for the test suite? is this one excluded?
>
>    pauld: I suspect this is something we've excluded, so it could be safe
>
>    could risk introducing an advanced pattern
>
>    example something like:
>
>    <xs:element name="foo">
>      <xs:complexType>
>        <xs:sequence>
>          <xs:element ..
>          <xs:element ..
>         </xs:sequence>
>      </xs:complexType>
>    </xs:element
>
>    gcowe: will update example
>
>    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-9, will expand example
>
>   lc-xsd-10
>
>    * Section 2.1.6: BlockDefault. This pattern seems to imply that
>    substitutions and or derivations are blocked if the @blockDefault
>    attribute is provided, but in fact that attribute carries a value that can
>    selectively enable or disable blocking for any combination of extension,
>    restriction, and substitution. It seems unlikely that the rule of
>    interest is really that the attribute is present. Is that what's
>    intended, or did you wish to actually check for certain values of the
>    blockDefault. Note, in particular, that an explicit blockDefault="" has
>    the same semantic as leaving out the attribute entirely.
>    I regret that I did not have time to review the remainder of the patterns
>    in the draft, but I would assume that the above comments would be
>    representative of what would be found for other patterns.
>
>    jonc: mea culpa!
>    ... pattern needs tightening up,
>
>    pauld: it's been moved to Advanced anyway
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: jcalladi to sort out BlockDefault patterns [recorded in
>    http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
>
>    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-130 - Sort out BlockDefault patterns [on Jonathan Calladine - due 2008-03-25].
>
>    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-10, BlockDefault has been moved to Advanced
>
>   lc-xsd-11 Editorial Concerns
>
>    The databinding draft is very long, and a lot of it is devoted to what is
>    ultimately boilerplate. Consider the targetNamespace pattern. It is
>    introduced with nearly 1/2 page of multicolor writeup, but really all it's
>    trying to say seems to be: This pattern requires that the schema
>    document have a targetNamespace attribute with an absolute URI as its
>    value. That could be said much more clearly and concisely. I think the
>    draft would be much more effective if the patterns were introduced in a
>    manner that was as concise and clear as possible. It's not helpful to
>    repeat over and over "An [XML 1.0] document exhibits....", and as noted
>    above, the example schema could be made shorter and clearer. Finally,
>    what would be most helpful for a pattern like this is to explain ">>why<<
>    an absolute URI"? The Schema recommendation points to the XML Namespaces
>    recommendation for the definition of a namespace name, and that in turn
>    requires a URI Reference [5], not an Absolute URI. So, it would be
>    useful in general if some of the boilerplate were eliminated and the
>    sections made much shorter and easier to read, but conversely it would be
>    useful to say a bit about what makes the pattern interesting. Explain
>    briefly if there's a reason why absolute namespace URIs are interesting,
>    or did you really just mean this pattern to be "a non-absent
>    targetNamespace is available"?
>
>    pauld: OK, so whatabout our extensive use of boilerplate?
>
>    pauld: it's not a very human readable spec!
>
>    gcowe: it is computer generated
>
>    jonc: hard to avoid
>
>    >>>why<<<
>
>    pauld: we could have written another Schema primer, but our work has been driven by the test suite and our patterns
>    detector resulting in a concrete testable document. Without a strong proposal of contributed annotated text, I'm going to
>    push back.
>
>    jonc: discussion was it's opening the flood gates, and this is for the primer
>
>    pauld: I know, I'm not keen on specs which justify themselves
>    ... we're pretty clear why a pattern is Basic or Advanced
>    ... we're not clear on how patterns come about
>    ... sounds like something we could add as editorial text, volunteers?
>    ... we've done a lot of work in terms of test tools and suites, and that' the best approach IMO
>
>    jonc: in the past I have argued for Noah's position, but it's seems best left to additional documents and discussion, on a
>    wiki?
>
>    pauld: XML was famously wafted by Tim Bray as a small spec, then the first thing he did was publish an "annotated version".
>    You're free to do the same :)
>    ... I think its' fair comment to say why a pattern is interesting. Hmm. Will look at that generically in the introduction.
>
>    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-11 in part, will add more introduction text
>
>   Status of Publication
>
>    pauld: all of the comments accepted are editorial, any objections to incorporating the text and then going ahead to Last
>    Call as planned?
>
>    *None heard*
>
>    pickup again next tuesday
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>    [NEW] ACTION: jcalladi to sort out BlockDefault patterns [recorded in
>    http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
>    [NEW] ACTION: pdowney to ask the Schema WG for advice [recorded in
>    http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
>
>
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Received on Tuesday, 25 March 2008 16:20:36 GMT

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