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Re: Thank you for saving my (Peter Williams') sanity...

From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:57:04 -0500
Message-ID: <4F09E700.7050708@openlinksw.com>
To: public-xg-webid@w3.org
On 1/8/12 3:11 AM, Henry Story wrote:
>
> On 8 Jan 2012, at 08:59, Peter Williams wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I have linked to a turrle document (if you look). Its even 
>> auto-generated (from the HTML/RDFa). It even has a describedBy link 
>> to something called linkedata (at uriburner). If its in error, let me 
>> know (Id quite like to perfect it, so I can test it really works).
>> The point is (and Im getting bored of saying it), is that TTL cannot 
>> be published by the consumer (at blogspot). Id love that it were (but 
>> I dont know how). This is the test (nothing else).
>> But then, to be wholly fair to Google, only at Google Blogspot can 
>> one publish RDFa. At wordpress one can publish nothing. I just have 
>> up at Microsfot Spaces (before it gave up on itself, and turned me 
>> over to wordpress - whihc failed the test).
>> I cannot stand Google, but I have to be fair to them.  Its my nature 
>> (and my upbringing). They are the only case of consumer blogsite that 
>> works with webid as we know it today. And for that (degrudingly) I 
>> have to wward them full marks. Well done Google (Ow!) Im a totaly 
>> biase judge. But even I cannot deny the truth.
>> I recongize the future is in HTML5 (with RDfa 1.x support), Henry. I 
>> dont hold you responsible, for the delay. Nirvana is always 
>> preferable. I just have reason to doubt you will get there. Its 
>> called "experience with crypto".
>> Das ist in der Tasche (I dont known the french equivalent, sorry).
>
> Well clearly WebId is not going to end up big because people publish 
> their own RDF in turtle or RDFa by hand.  It will be big when those 
> platforms support it directly and make the user experience seamless, 
> so that the user can just click a button and be done with it.

Yes, and the platform vendors are presented with two choices re. 
structured data in HTML:

1. Microdata -- already supported by all the browser players and being 
exploited by search engine players, today
2. RDFa .

In reality, the letters R-D-F already add minuses to RDFa even if it had 
identical syntax to Microdata. That's how bad the letters R-D-F are re. 
anything in the Web realm with non Semantic Web community adoption in mind.

Simple and deft slight of hand would be to apply wisdom of Solomon to 
this matter i.e., just put Microdata and RDFa on a level playing field 
e.g., tell people that the syntax doesn't matter, its the directed graph 
and its human/machine readability that matters.

Why is this so complex?

Kingsley

>
> As you see there are a few of us here showing how one can make the 
> experience simple, whilst working on the spec which we improve with 
> feedback from our experience deploying things.
>
>
>> Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>> From: henry.story@bblfish.net <mailto:henry.story@bblfish.net>
>> Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 08:49:03 +0100
>> CC: kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>; 
>> j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>; 
>> public-xg-webid@w3.org <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>> To: home_pw@msn.com <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>
>>
>>
>> On 8 Jan 2012, at 08:30, Peter Williams wrote:
>>
>>
>>      Peter williams (known in spanish as el stupido) believed the
>>     RDFa last standard was finished ~2 years ago. we learn that ,
>>     just as its finally finally-finished, and its so finished just as
>>     its replacement sort of goes live.
>>
>>
>> rdfa in xhtml was finished.
>>
>>      Im used to this, game. Ive seen it before; more than once.
>>
>>
>> indeed TLS v1.2 was also out years ago and is only being deployed 
>> now. Java 7 has it btw.
>>
>>
>>     This is wny we in realty wait 3 more years, till the semweb is 15
>>     year old.
>>
>>
>> There are different adoption curves. NASA has been using it and so 
>> have the life sciences for a long time. Governemtns and universities 
>> are using it to publish data. Realty may who knows be the last to use 
>> it. Perhaps they never will.
>>
>> Anyway, be that as it may. How easy would you find it to publish a 
>> turtle document and link to it? Most web sites allow one to publish 
>> images, so publishing a turtle document should not be beyond their 
>> ability.
>>
>>
>>
>>     When its 15 years old, Ive little doubt we will be waiting will
>>     its 18 year old.
>>
>>     Until a tooling commnity relinquises control, one waits. The
>>     temptation to hold on to a small tooling market is immense. I
>>     understand that (baving been there for 15 years, with certs). We
>>     are now are entering year 25 with certs.
>>
>>     Its that simple. The warning signs are written all over.
>>
>>     The most worrisome (but  most human) are that W3C is now all over
>>     crypto. And, I know why. Another knighthood is on the line.
>>
>>     Only a couple of days left, to prove the case for or agin.
>>
>>     Looking more like agin, as it comes down to the wire.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>     From:henry.story@bblfish.net <mailto:henry.story@bblfish.net>
>>     Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 06:16:06 +0100
>>     CC:home_pw@msn.com
>>     <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>;j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at
>>     <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>;public-xg-webid@w3.org
>>     <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>     To:kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>
>>
>>
>>     On 8 Jan 2012, at 05:26, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>
>>         On 1/7/12 11:05 PM, Henry Story wrote:
>>
>>
>>             On 7 Jan 2012, at 23:59, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>                 Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>                 On Jan 7, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Henry Story
>>                 <henry.story@bblfish.net
>>                 <mailto:henry.story@bblfish.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>                     On 7 Jan 2012, at 23:16, Peter Williams wrote:
>>
>>                         So I did it on my "programmers" web site-
>>                         where Im acting unconsumer-like (built a
>>                         special purpose web app).
>>
>>                         And, on my blogspot account, I added the
>>                         meta-link to the template. But, AS A CONSUMER
>>                         i cannot set the content type (of a server).
>>
>>                         So here we have a conundrum.
>>
>>                         The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable
>>                         "politically" is that it works in the crappy
>>                         web as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It
>>                         doesnt need web upgrade, or powers that the
>>                         typical consumer does not have. it is
>>                         supposed to work with everyone's HTML editor
>>                         (even one 10 years old) uploading to an 10
>>                         year old web endpoint.
>>
>>
>>                     In a few months there will be both rdfa 1.1 that
>>                     is well defined in html, and a well formed
>>                     semantics for micro data which is also an html5
>>                     technology. I am told that both are very similar,
>>                     and for some simple substitutions micro data is
>>                     rdfa too.
>>
>>                     So here you have to be a bit patient. I think you
>>                     can serve what you have as html just make sure
>>                     you close tags <span></span> and that you don't
>>                     use the xhtml version of <span/> .  You are
>>                     living a little more on the bleeding edge here,
>>                     so it's just a question of being a little bit
>>                     more careful.
>>
>>
>>                 And we pretend Microdara doesn't exist , right?
>>
>>
>>             No, I did not say that. I said we wait a bit for the dust
>>             to settle and the standards to be finished.
>>
>>
>>         And I am asking: why do you think the dust has settled re.
>>         the ability to make machine comprehensible eav/spo based
>>         directed graphs from html with microdata based structured
>>         data islands? There are converters/translators/rdfizers
>>         (beyond ours) out there that do this all ready [1][2].
>>
>>             Or Peter finds a way to put the xhtml mime type up.
>>
>>
>>         He won't in consumer mode.
>>
>>              We are working here for a standards body, so why should
>>             we be ignoring standards?
>>
>>
>>         You tell me.
>>
>>             For the moment the standard of microdata to rdf is not
>>             finished, and neither is RDFa .
>>
>>
>>         But RDFa is finished enough for you re. WebID but not so re.
>>         Microdata. That's my perennial problem with this overt bias.
>>
>>
>>     RDFa 1.0 is finished
>>     http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/
>>
>>     (in xhtml).  It is the Xhtml version that we are supporting. You
>>     do too.
>>     Peter williams has a problem with HTML. He does not seem to be
>>     able to get the right mime type.
>>     He wrote:
>>
>>                         The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable
>>                         "politically" is that it works in the crappy
>>                         web as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It
>>                         doesnt need web upgrade, or powers that the
>>                         typical consumer does not have. it is
>>                         supposed to work with everyone's HTML editor
>>                         (even one 10 years old) uploading to an 10
>>                         year old web endpoint.
>>
>>
>>
>>     And my answer was just wait until the standards are finished, or
>>     use the html mime type and see how far you get. No guarantees.
>>
>>
>>             Both are pretty much the same: they are unfinished. So we
>>             don't pick a winner.
>>
>>
>>         You are picking a winner by preferring one of the other.
>>         That's the problem, I repeat!
>>
>>
>>     I am not picking a winner. I am trying to help Peter Williams .
>>
>>     Notice how in the quoted text below
>>
>>                         The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable
>>                         "politically" is that it works in the crappy
>>                         web as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It
>>                         doesnt need web upgrade, or powers that the
>>                         typical consumer does not have. it is
>>                         supposed to work with everyone's HTML editor
>>                         (even one 10 years old) uploading to an 10
>>                         year old web endpoint.
>>
>>
>>     he puts the problem in terms of RDFa viability and so a long term
>>     issue. Notice that if we did not have RDFa he would be
>>     complaining how he can't do anything at all (within his self
>>     imposed constraints)
>>
>>
>>
>>             Peter was expressing a FEAR that this would never work.
>>             So I tried to answer his FEARt .
>>
>>
>>         You haven't allayed his fears at all. Peter is honing into
>>         the root problem re. RDFa and Microdata. I've already told
>>         you this is a problem re. text/html squatting of the worst
>>         kind. Look at what it did to your parsing efforts, look at
>>         what its doing to Peter's consumer profile simulation. And
>>         that's just the beginning. Imagine what will happen when more
>>         time and attention challenged folks wonder by WebID.
>>
>>
>>     Yes, I agree. But then what are you going to propose as a
>>     solution to Peter Williams? Microdata? But there is not RDF
>>     mapping for it that is official, and so he would have the same
>>     problem of the project working in some servers one way, and other
>>     servers another way.
>>
>>
>>         You have no reason for not giving RDFa and Microdata equal
>>         billing re. WebID. Peter's consumer profile will work fine
>>         with Microdata as he will soon demonstrate. This is basically
>>         what we've long handled by working with AtomPub or "Cut and
>>         Paste" to blogs (e.g. WordPress, BlogSpot and others).
>>
>>
>>     Please help Peter Williams by publishing his data with the xhtml
>>     mime type, and all will be done.   Or ask him to wait.
>>
>>     But I agree this issue does have to be solved. Think of RDFa as
>>     being in the spec with the caveat that those specs get finished
>>     and the rdfa micro data wars get resolved. I can add a note on
>>     that subject to the spec if you wish. Peter Williams seems to be
>>     very happy to have a markup that works in html.
>>
>>     Another solution is to have a link from the web page to a turtle
>>     file. Perhaps Peter Williams can explore that option for us from
>>     a consumer perspective - if we understand the type of link required.
>>
>>     Henry
>>
>>
>>         Links:
>>
>>         1.http://any23.org/-- Any23 converter that makes the RDF
>>         variant of eav/spo graphs from many syntaxes that includes
>>         Microdata (even better for you its Open Source and Java)
>>
>>         2.http://rdf-translator.appspot.com/-- ditto and it used RDFLib
>>
>>         3.http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller-- ditto and Ruby based.
>>
>>
>>         Kingsley
>>
>>
>>
>>                 Kingsley
>>
>>
>>                         Now, we have broken that rule, by requiring
>>                         something other than text/html.
>>
>>                         Now, as as consumer, I have no choice but to
>>                         subscribe to a SEMWEB-SPECIFIC identity
>>                         management system (like ODS). I cannot just
>>                         use a web page.
>>
>>                         Now, Im torn. For CONFORMANCE TESTING (and
>>                         debugging), I dont mind such literalism. For
>>                         products, I expect product to back off,
>>                         insisting on only 80% compliance (trading off
>>                         security, correctness for perfect
>>                         compliance). I expect product to do that
>>                         which works (even if the engineering quality
>>                         goes down a bit).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                         > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:25:47 +0100
>>                         > From:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at
>>                         <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>
>>                         > To:home_pw@msn.com <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>
>>                         > CC:public-xg-webid@w3.org
>>                         <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>                         > Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>                         >
>>                         > hi again,
>>                         >
>>                         > you now have "application/xhtml+xml" in a
>>                         meta-tag [1] like so
>>                         > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
>>                         content="application/xhtml+xml;"/>
>>                         >
>>                         > this is very good, but only half the way.
>>                         > you need to set a header also, currently
>>                         your page presents itself to the parser still
>>                         as text/html.
>>                         >
>>                         > in a jsp i do
>>                         >
>>                         > <%@page contentType="application/xhtml+xml"%>
>>                         >
>>                         > wkr j
>>                         >
>>                         > [1]http://idweb.cloudapp.net:8080/Home/About
>>                         >
>>                         >
>>                         > ----- Original Message -----
>>                         > From: "Jürgen Jakobitsch"
>>                         <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at
>>                         <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>>
>>                         > To: "Peter Williams" <home_pw@msn.com
>>                         <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>>
>>                         > Cc:public-xg-webid@w3.org
>>                         <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>                         > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 1:35:12 AM
>>                         > Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>                         >
>>                         > hi peter,
>>                         >
>>                         > one more thing :
>>                         >
>>                         > for 12 points, you should change the
>>                         content-type of your rdfa-profile to
>>                         application/xhtml+xml, see here [1],
>>                         > i did the same with my testing-rdfa-profile
>>                         [2] today.
>>                         >
>>                         > at this point of time, webIDRealm uses the
>>                         rdfa parser, when the content-type is
>>                         text/html or application/xhtml+xml,
>>                         > but i might/will change this to only
>>                         application/xhtml+xml.
>>                         >
>>                         > wkr j
>>                         >
>>                         > [1]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/
>>                         > [2]http://2sea.org/sea.jsp#j
>>                         >
>>                         >
>>                         >
>>                         > ----- Original Message -----
>>                         > From: "Peter Williams" <home_pw@msn.com
>>                         <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>>
>>                         > To: "j jakobitsch"
>>                         <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at
>>                         <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>>,public-xg-webid@w3.org
>>                         <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>                         > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 12:48:31 AM
>>                         > Subject: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>                         >
>>                         >
>>                         >http://tinyurl.com/7luhnnv
>>                         >
>>                         > Your debug output gave the clue, and W3C
>>                         validator did the rest.
>>                         >
>>                         > All along it was a &, vs an "&amp;"
>>                         >
>>                         > not only is there name/address duality,
>>                         there is duality of encodings of
>>                         meta-characters in the meta documents
>>                         descirbing resources, bearing addresses that
>>                         may be names (or not).
>>                         >
>>                         > --
>>                         > | Jürgen Jakobitsch,
>>                         > | Software Developer
>>                         > | Semantic Web Company GmbH
>>                         > | Mariahilfer Straße 70 / Neubaugasse 1, Top 8
>>                         > | A - 1070 Wien, Austria
>>                         > | Mob +43 676 62 12 710 | Fax +43.1.402 12
>>                         35 - 22
>>                         >
>>                         > COMPANY INFORMATION
>>                         > |http://www.semantic-web.at/
>>                         >
>>                         > PERSONAL INFORMATION
>>                         > | web :http://www.turnguard.com
>>                         <http://www.turnguard.com/>
>>                         > | foaf :http://www.turnguard.com/turnguard
>>                         > | skype : jakobitsch-punkt
>>                         >
>>                         > --
>>                         > | Jürgen Jakobitsch,
>>                         > | Software Developer
>>                         > | Semantic Web Company GmbH
>>                         > | Mariahilfer Straße 70 / Neubaugasse 1, Top 8
>>                         > | A - 1070 Wien, Austria
>>                         > | Mob +43 676 62 12 710 | Fax +43.1.402 12
>>                         35 - 22
>>                         >
>>                         > COMPANY INFORMATION
>>                         > |http://www.semantic-web.at/
>>                         >
>>                         > PERSONAL INFORMATION
>>                         > | web :http://www.turnguard.com
>>                         <http://www.turnguard.com/>
>>                         > | foaf :http://www.turnguard.com/turnguard
>>                         > | skype : jakobitsch-punkt
>>
>>
>>                     Social Web Architect
>>                     http://bblfish.net/
>>
>>
>>             Social Web Architect
>>             http://bblfish.net/
>>
>>
>>
>>         -- 
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Kingsley Idehen	
>>         Founder&  CEO
>>         OpenLink Software
>>         Company Web:http://www.openlinksw.com  <http://www.openlinksw.com/>
>>         Personal Weblog:http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen  <http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/%7Ekidehen>
>>         Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
>>         Google+ Profile:https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
>>         LinkedIn Profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Social Web Architect
>>     http://bblfish.net/
>>
>>
>> Social Web Architect
>> http://bblfish.net/
>
> Social Web Architect
> http://bblfish.net/
>


-- 

Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	
Founder&  CEO
OpenLink Software
Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen








Received on Sunday, 8 January 2012 18:57:31 GMT

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