W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-xg-webid@w3.org > January 2012

RE: Thankyou for saving my sanity...

From: Peter Williams <home_pw@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:30:20 -0800
Message-ID: <SNT143-W36B6515EF0A13691DB94BE929B0@phx.gbl>
To: <henry.story@bblfish.net>, <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
CC: <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>, "public-xg-webid@w3.org" <public-xg-webid@w3.org>


 Peter williams (known in spanish as el stupido) believed the RDFa last standard was finished ~2 years ago. we learn that , just as its finally finally-finished, and its so finished just as its replacement sort of goes live. Im used to this, game. Ive seen it before; more than once. This is wny we in realty wait 3 more years, till the semweb is 15 year old. When its 15 years old, Ive little doubt we will be waiting will its 18 year old. Until a tooling commnity relinquises control, one waits. The temptation to hold on to a small tooling market is immense. I understand that (baving been there for 15 years, with certs). We are now are entering year 25 with certs. Its that simple. The warning signs are written all over.  The most worrisome (but  most human) are that W3C is now all over crypto. And, I know why. Another knighthood is on the line. Only a couple of days left, to prove the case for or agin.  Looking more like agin, as it comes down to the wire.         Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
From: henry.story@bblfish.net
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 06:16:06 +0100
CC: home_pw@msn.com; j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at; public-xg-webid@w3.org
To: kidehen@openlinksw.com




On 8 Jan 2012, at 05:26, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
  
    
  
  
    On 1/7/12 11:05 PM, Henry Story wrote:
    

      
        On 7 Jan 2012, at 23:59, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
        
        
          
            

              

              Sent from my iPhone
            

              On Jan 7, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
              wrote:

              

            
            
              

                
                  On 7 Jan 2012, at 23:16, Peter Williams wrote:
                  
                  
                      
                        So I did it on my "programmers"
                          web site- where Im acting unconsumer-like
                          (built a special purpose web app).

                           

                          And, on my blogspot account, I added the
                          meta-link to the template. But, AS A CONSUMER
                          i cannot set the content type (of a server).

                           

                          So here we have a conundrum.

                           

                          The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable
                          "politically" is that it works in the crappy
                          web as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It
                          doesnt need web upgrade, or powers that the
                          typical consumer does not have. it is supposed
                          to work with everyone's HTML editor (even one
                          10 years old) uploading to an 10 year old web
                          endpoint.

                        
                      
                    
                  

                  
                  In a few months there will be both rdfa 1.1 that
                    is well defined in html, and a well formed semantics
                    for micro data which is also an html5 technology. I
                    am told that both are very similar, and for some
                    simple substitutions micro data is rdfa too.
                  

                  
                  So here you have to be a bit patient. I think you
                    can serve what you have as html just make sure you
                    close tags <span></span> and that you
                    don't use the xhtml version of <span/> .  You
                    are living a little more on the bleeding edge here,
                    so it's just a question of being a little bit more
                    careful.
                  

                
              
            
            

            
            And we pretend Microdara doesn't exist , right?
          
        
        

        
        No, I did not say that. I said we wait a bit for the dust
          to settle and the standards to be finished.
      
    
    

    And I am asking: why do you think the dust has settled re. the
    ability to make machine comprehensible eav/spo based directed graphs
    from html with microdata based structured data islands? There are
    converters/translators/rdfizers (beyond ours) out there that do this
    all ready [1][2].

     

    
      
         Or Peter finds a way to put the xhtml mime type up. 
      
    
    

    He won't in consumer mode. 

    
      
         We are working here for a standards body, so why should we
          be ignoring standards? 
      
    
    

    You tell me. 

    

    
      
        For the moment the standard of microdata to rdf is not
          finished, and neither is RDFa .
      
    
    

    But RDFa is finished enough for you re. WebID but not so re.
    Microdata. That's my perennial problem with this overt bias. 

RDFa 1.0 is finished http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/
(in xhtml).  It is the Xhtml version that we are supporting. You do too.Peter williams has a problem with HTML. He does not seem to be able to get the right mime type. He wrote:
The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable "politically" is that it works in the crappy web as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It doesnt need web upgrade, or powers that the typical consumer does not have. it is supposed to work with everyone's HTML editor (even one 10 years old) uploading to an 10 year old web endpoint.


And my answer was just wait until the standards are finished, or use the html mime type and see how far you get. No guarantees.

    

    
      
         Both are pretty much the same: they are unfinished. So we
          don't pick a winner. 

        
      
    
    

    You are picking a winner by preferring one of the other. That's the
    problem, I repeat!

I am not picking a winner. I am trying to help Peter Williams .
Notice how in the quoted text below
The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable "politically" is that it works in the crappy web as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It doesnt need web upgrade, or powers that the typical consumer does not have. it is supposed to work with everyone's HTML editor (even one 10 years old) uploading to an 10 year old web endpoint.

he puts the problem in terms of RDFa viability and so a long term issue. Notice that if we did not have RDFa he would be complaining how he can't do anything at all (within his self imposed constraints)
    

    
      
        

        
        Peter was expressing a FEAR that this would never work. So
          I tried to answer his FEARt .
      
    
    

    You haven't allayed his fears at all. Peter is honing into the root
    problem re. RDFa and Microdata. I've already told you this is a
    problem re. text/html squatting of the worst kind. Look at what it
    did to your parsing efforts, look at what its doing to Peter's
    consumer profile simulation. And that's just the beginning. Imagine
    what will happen when more time and attention challenged folks
    wonder by WebID. 

Yes, I agree. But then what are you going to propose as a solution to Peter Williams? Microdata? But there is not RDF mapping for it that is official, and so he would have the same problem of the project working in some servers one way, and other servers another way. 

    

    You have no reason for not giving RDFa and Microdata equal billing
    re. WebID. Peter's consumer profile will work fine with Microdata as
    he will soon demonstrate. This is basically what we've long handled
    by working with AtomPub or "Cut and Paste" to blogs (e.g. WordPress,
    BlogSpot and others).

Please help Peter Williams by publishing his data with the xhtml mime type, and all will be done.   Or ask him to wait. 
But I agree this issue does have to be solved. Think of RDFa as being in the spec with the caveat that those specs get finished and the rdfa micro data wars get resolved. I can add a note on that subject to the spec if you wish. Peter Williams seems to be very happy to have a markup that works in html.
Another solution is to have a link from the web page to a turtle file. Perhaps Peter Williams can explore that option for us from a consumer perspective - if we understand the type of link required.
Henry

    

    Links:

    

    1. http://any23.org/ -- Any23 converter that makes the RDF variant
    of eav/spo graphs from many syntaxes that includes Microdata (even
    better for you its Open Source and Java) 

    

    2. http://rdf-translator.appspot.com/ -- ditto and it used RDFLib

    

    3. http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller -- ditto and Ruby based.

    

     

    Kingsley

    
      

        
          
            

            
            Kingsley
            

            
              
                
                  
                      
                         

                          Now, we have broken that rule, by requiring
                          something other than text/html.

                           

                          Now, as as consumer, I have no choice but to
                          subscribe to a SEMWEB-SPECIFIC identity
                          management system (like ODS). I cannot just
                          use a web page.

                           

                          Now, Im torn. For CONFORMANCE TESTING (and
                          debugging), I dont mind such literalism. For
                          products, I expect product to back off,
                          insisting on only 80% compliance (trading off
                          security, correctness for perfect compliance).
                          I expect product to do that which works (even
                          if the engineering quality goes down a bit).

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                          

                           

                          > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:25:47 +0100

                            > From: j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at

                            > To: home_pw@msn.com

                            > CC: public-xg-webid@w3.org

                            > Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my
                            sanity...

                            > 

                            > hi again,

                            > 

                            > you now have "application/xhtml+xml" in
                            a meta-tag [1] like so 

                            > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
                            content="application/xhtml+xml;"/>

                            > 

                            > this is very good, but only half the
                            way.

                            > you need to set a header also,
                            currently your page presents itself to the
                            parser still as text/html.

                            > 

                            > in a jsp i do 

                            > 

                            > <%@page
                            contentType="application/xhtml+xml"%>

                            > 

                            > wkr j

                            > 

                            > [1] http://idweb.cloudapp.net:8080/Home/About

                            > 

                            > 

                            > ----- Original Message -----

                            > From: "Jürgen Jakobitsch" <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>

                            > To: "Peter Williams" <home_pw@msn.com>

                            > Cc: public-xg-webid@w3.org

                            > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 1:35:12
                            AM

                            > Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my
                            sanity...

                            > 

                            > hi peter,

                            > 

                            > one more thing :

                            > 

                            > for 12 points, you should change the
                            content-type of your rdfa-profile to
                            application/xhtml+xml, see here [1],

                            > i did the same with my
                            testing-rdfa-profile [2] today.

                            > 

                            > at this point of time, webIDRealm uses
                            the rdfa parser, when the content-type is
                            text/html or application/xhtml+xml,

                            > but i might/will change this to only
                            application/xhtml+xml.

                            > 

                            > wkr j

                            > 

                            > [1] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/

                            > [2] http://2sea.org/sea.jsp#j

                            > 

                            > 

                            > 

                            > ----- Original Message -----

                            > From: "Peter Williams" <home_pw@msn.com>

                            > To: "j jakobitsch" <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>,
                            public-xg-webid@w3.org

                            > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012
                            12:48:31 AM

                            > Subject: Thankyou for saving my
                            sanity...

                            > 

                            > 

                            > http://tinyurl.com/7luhnnv

                            > 

                            > Your debug output gave the clue, and
                            W3C validator did the rest.

                            > 

                            > All along it was a &, vs an
                            "&amp;"

                            > 

                            > not only is there name/address duality,
                            there is duality of encodings of
                            meta-characters in the meta documents
                            descirbing resources, bearing addresses that
                            may be names (or not).

                            > 

                            > --

                            > | Jürgen Jakobitsch,

                            > | Software Developer

                            > | Semantic Web Company GmbH

                            > | Mariahilfer Straße 70 / Neubaugasse
                            1, Top 8

                            > | A - 1070 Wien, Austria

                            > | Mob +43 676 62 12 710 | Fax +43.1.402
                            12 35 - 22

                            > 

                            > COMPANY INFORMATION

                            > | http://www.semantic-web.at/

                            > 

                            > PERSONAL INFORMATION

                            > | web : http://www.turnguard.com

                            > | foaf : http://www.turnguard.com/turnguard

                            > | skype : jakobitsch-punkt

                            > 

                            > -- 

                            > | Jürgen Jakobitsch, 

                            > | Software Developer

                            > | Semantic Web Company GmbH

                            > | Mariahilfer Straße 70 / Neubaugasse
                            1, Top 8

                            > | A - 1070 Wien, Austria

                            > | Mob +43 676 62 12 710 | Fax +43.1.402
                            12 35 - 22

                            > 

                            > COMPANY INFORMATION

                            > | http://www.semantic-web.at/

                            > 

                            > PERSONAL INFORMATION

                            > | web : http://www.turnguard.com

                            > | foaf : http://www.turnguard.com/turnguard

                            > | skype : jakobitsch-punkt
                        
                      
                    
                
                

                
                  
                      
                          
                              
                                  
                                            Social Web Architect

                                              http://bblfish.net/
                                          
                                
                            
                        
                    
                
                

              
            
          
        
      
      

      
        
            
                
                    
                        
                                  Social Web Architect

                                    http://bblfish.net/
                                
                      
                  
              
          
      
      

    
    

    

    -- 

Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	      
Founder & CEO 
OpenLink Software     
Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen





  



Social Web Architect
http://bblfish.net/


 		 	   		  
Received on Sunday, 8 January 2012 07:30:52 GMT

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