W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-xg-webid@w3.org > January 2012

Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...

From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:26:15 -0500
Message-ID: <4F091AE7.7010903@openlinksw.com>
To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
CC: Peter Williams <home_pw@msn.com>, "<j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>" <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>, "public-xg-webid@w3.org" <public-xg-webid@w3.org>
On 1/7/12 11:05 PM, Henry Story wrote:
>
> On 7 Jan 2012, at 23:59, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net 
>> <mailto:henry.story@bblfish.net>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 7 Jan 2012, at 23:16, Peter Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>> So I did it on my "programmers" web site- where Im acting 
>>>> unconsumer-like (built a special purpose web app).
>>>>
>>>> And, on my blogspot account, I added the meta-link to the template. 
>>>> But, AS A CONSUMER i cannot set the content type (of a server).
>>>>
>>>> So here we have a conundrum.
>>>>
>>>> The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable "politically" is that it 
>>>> works in the crappy web as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It 
>>>> doesnt need web upgrade, or powers that the typical consumer does 
>>>> not have. it is supposed to work with everyone's HTML editor (even 
>>>> one 10 years old) uploading to an 10 year old web endpoint.
>>>
>>> In a few months there will be both rdfa 1.1 that is well defined in 
>>> html, and a well formed semantics for micro data which is also an 
>>> html5 technology. I am told that both are very similar, and for some 
>>> simple substitutions micro data is rdfa too.
>>>
>>> So here you have to be a bit patient. I think you can serve what you 
>>> have as html just make sure you close tags <span></span> and that 
>>> you don't use the xhtml version of <span/> .  You are living a 
>>> little more on the bleeding edge here, so it's just a question of 
>>> being a little bit more careful.
>>>
>>
>> And we pretend Microdara doesn't exist , right?
>
> No, I did not say that. I said we wait a bit for the dust to settle 
> and the standards to be finished.

And I am asking: why do you think the dust has settled re. the ability 
to make machine comprehensible eav/spo based directed graphs from html 
with microdata based structured data islands? There are 
converters/translators/rdfizers (beyond ours) out there that do this all 
ready [1][2].

> Or Peter finds a way to put the xhtml mime type up.

He won't in consumer mode.
>  We are working here for a standards body, so why should we be 
> ignoring standards?

You tell me.

> For the moment the standard of microdata to rdf is not finished, and 
> neither is RDFa .

But RDFa is finished enough for you re. WebID but not so re. Microdata. 
That's my perennial problem with this overt bias.

> Both are pretty much the same: they are unfinished. So we don't pick a 
> winner.

You are picking a winner by preferring one of the other. That's the 
problem, I repeat!

>
> Peter was expressing a FEAR that this would never work. So I tried to 
> answer his FEARt .

You haven't allayed his fears at all. Peter is honing into the root 
problem re. RDFa and Microdata. I've already told you this is a problem 
re. text/html squatting of the worst kind. Look at what it did to your 
parsing efforts, look at what its doing to Peter's consumer profile 
simulation. And that's just the beginning. Imagine what will happen when 
more time and attention challenged folks wonder by WebID.

You have no reason for not giving RDFa and Microdata equal billing re. 
WebID. Peter's consumer profile will work fine with Microdata as he will 
soon demonstrate. This is basically what we've long handled by working 
with AtomPub or "Cut and Paste" to blogs (e.g. WordPress, BlogSpot and 
others).

Links:

1. http://any23.org/ -- Any23 converter that makes the RDF variant of 
eav/spo graphs from many syntaxes that includes Microdata (even better 
for you its Open Source and Java)

2. http://rdf-translator.appspot.com/ -- ditto and it used RDFLib

3. http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller -- ditto and Ruby based.


Kingsley
>
>>
>> Kingsley
>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, we have broken that rule, by requiring something other than 
>>>> text/html.
>>>>
>>>> Now, as as consumer, I have no choice but to subscribe to a 
>>>> SEMWEB-SPECIFIC identity management system (like ODS). I cannot 
>>>> just use a web page.
>>>>
>>>> Now, Im torn. For CONFORMANCE TESTING (and debugging), I dont mind 
>>>> such literalism. For products, I expect product to back off, 
>>>> insisting on only 80% compliance (trading off security, correctness 
>>>> for perfect compliance). I expect product to do that which works 
>>>> (even if the engineering quality goes down a bit).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:25:47 +0100
>>>> > From:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at 
>>>> <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>
>>>> > To:home_pw@msn.com <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>
>>>> > CC:public-xg-webid@w3.org <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>>> > Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>>> >
>>>> > hi again,
>>>> >
>>>> > you now have "application/xhtml+xml" in a meta-tag [1] like so
>>>> > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="application/xhtml+xml;"/>
>>>> >
>>>> > this is very good, but only half the way.
>>>> > you need to set a header also, currently your page presents itself 
>>>> to the parser still as text/html.
>>>> >
>>>> > in a jsp i do
>>>> >
>>>> > <%@page contentType="application/xhtml+xml"%>
>>>> >
>>>> > wkr j
>>>> >
>>>> > [1] http://idweb.cloudapp.net:8080/Home/About
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Jürgen Jakobitsch" <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at 
>>>> <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>>
>>>> > To: "Peter Williams" <home_pw@msn.com <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>>
>>>> > Cc: public-xg-webid@w3.org <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 1:35:12 AM
>>>> > Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>>> >
>>>> > hi peter,
>>>> >
>>>> > one more thing :
>>>> >
>>>> > for 12 points, you should change the content-type of your 
>>>> rdfa-profile to application/xhtml+xml, see here [1],
>>>> > i did the same with my testing-rdfa-profile [2] today.
>>>> >
>>>> > at this point of time, webIDRealm uses the rdfa parser, when the 
>>>> content-type is text/html or application/xhtml+xml,
>>>> > but i might/will change this to only application/xhtml+xml.
>>>> >
>>>> > wkr j
>>>> >
>>>> > [1] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/
>>>> > [2] http://2sea.org/sea.jsp#j
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Peter Williams" <home_pw@msn.com <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>>
>>>> > To: "j jakobitsch" <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at 
>>>> <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>>, public-xg-webid@w3.org 
>>>> <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 12:48:31 AM
>>>> > Subject: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > http://tinyurl.com/7luhnnv
>>>> >
>>>> > Your debug output gave the clue, and W3C validator did the rest.
>>>> >
>>>> > All along it was a &, vs an "&amp;"
>>>> >
>>>> > not only is there name/address duality, there is duality of 
>>>> encodings of meta-characters in the meta documents descirbing 
>>>> resources, bearing addresses that may be names (or not).
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > | Jürgen Jakobitsch,
>>>> > | Software Developer
>>>> > | Semantic Web Company GmbH
>>>> > | Mariahilfer Straße 70 / Neubaugasse 1, Top 8
>>>> > | A - 1070 Wien, Austria
>>>> > | Mob +43 676 62 12 710 | Fax +43.1.402 12 35 - 22
>>>> >
>>>> > COMPANY INFORMATION
>>>> > | http://www.semantic-web.at/
>>>> >
>>>> > PERSONAL INFORMATION
>>>> > | web : http://www.turnguard.com <http://www.turnguard.com/>
>>>> > | foaf : http://www.turnguard.com/turnguard
>>>> > | skype : jakobitsch-punkt
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > | Jürgen Jakobitsch,
>>>> > | Software Developer
>>>> > | Semantic Web Company GmbH
>>>> > | Mariahilfer Straße 70 / Neubaugasse 1, Top 8
>>>> > | A - 1070 Wien, Austria
>>>> > | Mob +43 676 62 12 710 | Fax +43.1.402 12 35 - 22
>>>> >
>>>> > COMPANY INFORMATION
>>>> > | http://www.semantic-web.at/
>>>> >
>>>> > PERSONAL INFORMATION
>>>> > | web : http://www.turnguard.com <http://www.turnguard.com/>
>>>> > | foaf : http://www.turnguard.com/turnguard
>>>> > | skype : jakobitsch-punkt
>>>
>>> Social Web Architect
>>> http://bblfish.net/
>>>
>
> Social Web Architect
> http://bblfish.net/
>


-- 

Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	
Founder&  CEO
OpenLink Software
Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen








Received on Sunday, 8 January 2012 04:26:43 GMT

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