W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-xg-webid@w3.org > March 2011

Re: Invitation for WebID XG to become WebID Community Group

From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 02:05:52 +0100
Cc: "WebID XG" <public-xg-webid@w3.org>
Message-Id: <3BE95A10-0C80-4D9F-81DF-8171A96E1AA7@bblfish.net>
To: "Harry Halpin" <hhalpin@w3.org>
In my view the WebID XG is not the best candidate for a community group. For the following reasons: 

- its task is very well defined
- it can  deliver a specifications, test suites and working implementations

The above are enough to fulfil most criteria for a maturing standard.

Instad, the WebID XG should be moving to full Working Group status.

Community groups are more appropriate for communities with flexible agendas. The foaf-protocols list would be such a group, since it has come up with ideas in many different areas such as 

  -webid
  -access control
  -RESTful mail
  -pingback protocol
  ....

  Each one of those when implemented widely enough are good candidates for incubator or working groups.

On 22 Mar 2011, at 23:14, Harry Halpin wrote:

> So, the W3C would like to formally invite the WebID XG to transition into
> a Community Group. The advantages include:
> 
> - No charter expiration

 I really want the WebID stuff not to last for ever. It has gone on long enough as it is. 

> - Easier membership for individuals
> - Continued access to W3C

  Those are useful for lists such as foaf-protocols, which are more biased if you want than the federated social web.

> 
> See more info here [1].
> 
> We'd like a decision by the WebID XG after your next meeting by possible,
> so please discuss. I'm happy to answer questions.
> 
>    cheers,
>         harry
> 
> [1] http://www.w3.org/2010/07/community
> 
>> It looks like we forgot to get rrsagent going. So here are the meeting
> minutes presented via Adium.
>> 
>> Harry Halpin gave a very detailed overview of the two meetings: the
> california one and the Berlin meeting. Attendees really liked this less
> formal meeting finding it very useful. So we will try to have more
> informal meetings...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 16:01
>> Zakim
>> + +1.781.866.aabb
>> 16:02
>> scor
>> Zakim, +1.781.866.aabb is me
>> 16:02
>> Zakim
>> +scor; got it
>> 16:05
>> mischat
>> Zakim: what is the code ?
>> 16:05
>> Zakim
>> + +1.805.416.aacc
>> 16:07
>> bblfish
>> hi
>> 16:07
>> Zakim
>> +??P2
>> 16:07
>> scor
>> zakim, ??P6 is laszlo
>> 16:07
>> Zakim
>> +laszlo; got it
>> 16:07
>> mischat
>> zakim, ??P2 is me
>> 16:07
>> Zakim
>> +mischat; got it
>> 16:07
>> mischat
>> zakim, mute me
>> 16:07
>> Zakim
>> mischat should now be muted
>> 16:07
>> laszlo
>> thx
>> 16:07
>> scor
>> zakim, who is making noise?
>> 16:08
>> bblfish
>> zakim, who is making noise?
>> 16:08
>> Zakim
>> scor, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: laszlo
> (38%), bblfish (15%)
>> 16:08
>> laszlo
>> zakim, mute me
>> 16:08
>> Zakim
>> laszlo should now be muted
>> 16:08
>> Zakim
>> bblfish, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following:
> bblfish (43%), +1.574.277.aaaa (5%)
>> 16:08mischat	hello all
>> 16:08
>> scor
>> I will be mostly talking via IRC
>> 16:09
>> laszlo
>> for some reason, my connection is always noisy, not sure why, probably a
> client issue, as I kept relocating, will be in listen only mode
>> 16:09
>> scor
>> though I can hear everyone on the call
>> 16:09
>> scor
>> bblfish:
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-webid/2011Mar/0076.html 16:09
>> bblfish
>> laszlo, have you tried voip?
>> 16:10
>> scor
>> bblfish: nope,
>> 16:10
>> laszlo
>> im on voip
>> 16:10
>> bblfish
>> I am on voip today
>> 16:10
>> laszlo
>> with ekiga
>> 16:10
>> scor
>> just browsing the mailing list
>> 16:10
>> scor
>> bblfish: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-webid/
>> 16:11
>> scor
>> I can scribe,
>> 16:11
>> harry [harry@128.30.52.28] entered the room.
>> 16:11
>> scor
>> though I;m not an expert
>> 16:11
>> harry
>> \me will dial in shortly
>> argh spanish keyboard :)
>> 16:12
>> bblfish
>> what is [on] [the] agenda?
>> zakim, what is [on] [the] agenda?
>> 16:12
>> Zakim
>> I don't understand your question, bblfish.
>> 16:12
>> harry
>> Zakim, what's the code?
>> 16:12
>> Zakim
>> the conference code is 93243 (tel:+1.617.761.6200tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03
> tel:+44.203.318.0479), harry
>> +??P1
>> 16:13
>> mischat
>> zakim, what's the agenda?
>> 16:13
>> Zakim
>> I see nothing on the agenda
>> 16:13
>> harry
>> Zakim, ??P1
>> 16:13
>> Zakim
>> I don't understand '??P1', harry
>> 16:13
>> harry
>> Zakim, ??P1 is harry
>> 16:13
>> Zakim
>> +harry; got it
>> 16:13
>> harry
>> whatever works for the group
>> 16:13
>> bblfish
>> Today is a less ordered conf call, due to circumstances
>> of this being on Tuesday and not the usual monday
>> So we start with Harry talking on Confs
>> 16:14
>> scor
>> harry: starts the conf call
>> 16:14
>> harry
>> http://www.w3.org/2011/identity-ws/Overview.html
>> "Identity in the Browser"
>> hosted by Mozilla May 24-25th in Mountain View
>> 16:14
>> scor
>> this is the first workshop hosted by Mozilla in Mountain View
>> 16:15
>> harry
>> what roles browser vendors can play in securing identity and help out
> higher-levels of assurance
>> OpenID, SAML
>> 16:15
>> scor
>> what roles browser vendor can play in security
>> discussion on certificates likely to happen
>> 16:15
>> harry
>> UProve
>> 16:15
>> scor
>> google, Microsoft (IE), Opera, Apple
>> 16:16
>> harry
>> Tom Smedinghoff EV certificates
>> 16:16
>> scor
>> we should get a position paper at this workshop
>> 16:16
>> peterw [home_pw@64.134.236.190] entered the room.
>> 16:16
>> harry
>> Aza Raskin's "Identity in the Browser"
>> 16:16
>> scor
>> and at least a member of the XG attending
>> 16:17
>> mischat
>> http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/identity-in-the-browser-firefox/ 16:17
>> scor
>> position paper can be short, due April 22nd
>> focus on the fact there will most of the browser vendor in the room. be
> light on the semantic web, rather focus on the low hanging fruits for
> vendor to fix
>> be specific on what bugs to fix
>> 16:18
>> bblfish
>> sounds questions?
>> sounds good, any questions?
>> 16:18
>> scor
>> WebID spec would be one input
>> 16:19
>> jeffsayre
>> q+
>> 16:19Zakim	sees jeffsayre on the speaker queue
>> 16:19
>> peterw
>> a main point of FOAF+SSL (webid) was that semantic web was (in a RDFa
> foaf
>> card) low hanging fruit. This was the premise of this initiative. Is
> foaf
>> itself too semwebby?
>> 16:19
>> jeffsayre
>> Zakim, unmute
>> 16:19
>> Zakim
>> I don't understand 'unmute', jeffsayre
>> 16:19
>> harry
>> Well, FOAF is something that folks can use in HTML.
>> 16:19
>> bblfish
>> q?
>> 16:19Zakim	sees jeffsayre on the speaker queue
>> 16:19
>> peterw
>> q+
>> 16:19Zakim	sees jeffsayre, peterw on the speaker queue
>> 16:20
>> scor
>> jeffsayre: how many papers would be presented?
>> 16:20
>> mischat
>> Zakim, unmute jeffsayre
>> 16:20
>> Zakim
>> sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to
> jeffsayre
>> 16:21
>> scor
>> harry: attendance will be capped, 30 ppl in PC => 10 to 20 presentations
> short presentations (15min)
>> intention is to get vendors to fix bugs for WebID to work better across
> browsers
>> be concrete with the vendors, what the can do fast...
>> 16:22
>> bblfish
>> q?
>> 16:22Zakim	sees jeffsayre, peterw on the speaker queue
>> 16:22
>> scor
>> hopefully the Opera folks can have something working
>> 16:23
>> harry
>> However, browsers do not have native RDFa support, nor do they seem
> particularly interested right now, although that may change. See David
> Baron's comment on RDFa charter. However, Mozilla has hired Ben Adida,
> so
>> maybe RDFa support will kick in.
>> 16:23mischat	how many people here are on the west coast of the US ? 16:23
>> Zakim
>> - +1.805.416.aacc
>> 16:23
>> harry
>> http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2011/index.html
>> 16:24
>> Zakim
>> + +1.805.416.aadd
>> 16:24
>> scor
>> workshop colocated with IEEE 2011 on security and privacy
>> 16:24
>> bblfish
>> q?
>> 16:24Zakim	sees jeffsayre, peterw on the speaker queue
>> 16:24
>> mischat
>> ack jeffsayre
>> 16:24Zakim	sees peterw on the speaker queue
>> 16:25
>> scor
>> peterw: although WebID started within the SW realm, be light on this at
> a
>> workshop which is not SW centric
>> harry: Mozilla's RDF implementation was broken and not maintained.
> Yahoo's recent stats saying RDFa is doing quite well, though unclear who
> is using it
>> still a lot of interest in it
>> http://tripletalk.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/rdfa-deployment-across-the-web/
> 16:26
>> bblfish
>> q+
>> 16:26Zakim	sees peterw, bblfish on the speaker queue
>> 16:26
>> mischat
>> https://tripletalk.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/rdfa-deployment-across-the-web/
> 16:27
>> webr3 [nathan@86.142.135.45] entered the room.
>> 16:27
>> claudio [qw3birc@128.30.52.28] entered the room.
>> 16:27
>> scor
>> Mozilla hired Ben Adida, so fair to think browser vendor will have a
> closer look at RDFa
>> vendors might want to prioritize certificates (e.g. firesheep), WebID
> could benefit
>> peterw: it's the usable browser vendor in the PC,
>> 16:29mischat	wonders how webid fits in the web tracking and user privacy
> :http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/
>> 16:29
>> Zakim
>> + +1.781.273.aaee
>> -laszlo
>> 16:29mischat	harry i am not of committee
>> 16:29
>> MacTed
>> Zakim, aaee is OpenLink_Software
>> 16:29
>> Zakim
>> +OpenLink_Software; got it
>> 16:29
>> MacTed
>> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
>> 16:29
>> Zakim
>> +MacTed; got it
>> 16:29mischat	s/of/not/
>> 16:30
>> scor
>> I'm having trouble distinguishing who is saying what - could speaker
> give
>> there name when they speak?
>> 16:30
>> Zakim
>> +??P6
>> 16:30
>> harry
>> ?
>> 16:30
>> jeffsayre
>> Zakim, who's noisy?
>> 16:30
>> scor
>> zakim, who is making noise?
>> 16:30
>> harry
>> Zakim, who's making noise?
>> 16:30
>> laszlo
>> zakim, ??P6 is me
>> 16:30
>> Zakim
>> +laszlo; got it
>> 16:30
>> laszlo
>> zakim, mute me
>> 16:30
>> Zakim
>> laszlo should now be muted
>> 16:30
>> mischat
>> zakim, mute +??P6
>> 16:30
>> Zakim
>> sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to +??P6 16:30
>> harry
>> Zakim, mute laszlo
>> 16:30
>> Zakim
>> laszlo was already muted, harry
>> 16:30
>> Zakim
>> jeffsayre, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following:
> ??P6
>> (19%), +1.805.416.aadd (23%), bblfish (33%), +1.574.277.aaaa (14%) 16:30
>> Zakim
>> scor, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MacTed
> (32%)
>> harry, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MacTed
> (42%)
>> 16:31
>> MacTed
>> Zakim, mute me
>> 16:31
>> Zakim
>> MacTed should now be muted
>> 16:31
>> MacTed
>> even if I am already quiet!
>> 16:31
>> Zakim
>> -mischat
>> 16:31mischat	brb
>> 16:32
>> scor
>> bblfish: we might want to have more than 20min for the WebID XG as it's
> hard to explain WebId in less than 20mins
>> 16:32
>> yngve [yngve@213.236.208.22] entered the room.
>> 16:32
>> scor
>> harry: let's see when we have the papers ready. would like to see the
> spec
>> more mature so there can be feedback on it
>> 16:33
>> Zakim
>> +??P2
>> 16:33
>> scor
>> bblfish: loads of conferences. WebID is dangerous for some because it's
> so
>> simple and solves so much problems
>> 16:33
>> yngve
>> Zakim, ??P2 is yngve
>> 16:33
>> Zakim
>> +yngve; got it
>> 16:34
>> scor
>> difficult if we don't have enough time to explain that with such
> simplicity you can do a lot
>> harry: will consider it
>> using certificated will be a natural fit because most of the audience
> will
>> be familiar with it
>> 16:35
>> scor
>> bblfish:  you wanted to talk about the Berlin talk
>> 16:35
>> jeffsayre
>> The focus of position paper should thus be, from browser community
> perspective, How much benefit WebID brings with little additional
> effort.
>> 16:35
>> scor
>> harry: announcement later in the week
>> 16:35
>> harry
>> http://d-cent.org/fsw2011/
>> Federated Social Web Europe
>> This time we got both Mischa and Henry on the PC.
>> 16:36
>> scor
>> both mischat bblfish on the PC
>> 16:36
>> harry
>> http://d-cent.org/fsw2011/cfp/
>> 16:36
>> Zakim
>> +??P13
>> 16:36
>> scor
>> workshop, panels, quite a lot of space (1,5 day), open space for hacking
> and coding
>> 16:37
>> Zakim
>> +??P14
>> 16:37
>> mischat
>> zakime, ??P14 is me
>> zakim, ??P14 is me
>> 16:37
>> Zakim
>> +mischat; got it
>> 16:37
>> scor
>> focused on WebID server-side
>> 16:37
>> mischat
>> zakim, mute me
>> 16:37
>> Zakim
>> mischat should now be muted
>> 16:37
>> harry
>> Jan Schallab?ck, ULD
>> Berlin June 3-5th
>> position papers are optional!
>> 16:38mischat	is sorry, I had to take another call, been building saml
> stuff :(
>> 16:38mischat	didn't know that i was on the pc for this ;)
>> 16:38
>> harry
>> \me we moved you when you said you could not attend the west coast
> attendance!
>> 16:39
>> bblfish
>> q?
>> 16:39Zakim	sees peterw, bblfish on the speaker queue
>> 16:39
>> bblfish
>> q-
>> 16:39Zakim	sees peterw on the speaker queue
>> 16:39
>> scor
>> bblfish: WebID meeting in Berlin, great place to meet other WebID people
> 16:39
>> bblfish
>> and also great place to meet SocialWeb people !
>> 16:40
>> scor
>> the Germans take privacy more seriously than other countries
>> 16:41
>> peterw
>> the issue is that webid needs to recast itself, beyond semweb benefits.
> it
>> has to be about UCI - and self assertions. (the old openid message) 16:41
>> scor
>> peterw: UCI?
>> 16:41
>> jeffsayre
>> Federated Social Web XG folks are planning on meeting at that
> conference,
>> I believe
>> 16:41
>> harry
>> +1 peterw
>> 16:41
>> peterw
>> user centric identity
>> 16:41
>> scor
>> ppl from European parliament speaking
>> 16:42
>> bblfish
>> +1
>> 16:42
>> peterw
>> the workshop doesnt allow individuals for example, only organizations.
> its
>> an example of how webid distinguishes itself
>> 16:42mischat	i.e. "right to be forgotten" and the eu cookie laws are
> probably the two relevant european initiatives
>> 16:42
>> scor
>> 1 day of panels, 1day of position papers and 1 day of hakcing
>> 16:42
>> bblfish
>> q?
>> 16:42Zakim	sees peterw on the speaker queue
>> 16:42
>> harry
>> both workshops accept individuals. The USA one requires position papers,
> the EU one does not.
>> 16:42
>> peterw
>> q-
>> 16:42Zakim	sees no one on the speaker queue
>> 16:44
>> scor
>> the workshop in CA does accept individuals as long as they have a
> position
>> paper
>> 16:45
>> bblfish
>> the European meeting is sponsored by EU and W3C and so has wider range
> The Freedbom Box people?
>> http://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox
>> 16:46
>> mischat
>> mattl is on the PC fwiw
>> s/mattl/matt lee/
>> 16:46
>> bblfish
>> cool :-)
>> 16:46
>> jeffsayre
>> +1
>> 16:47
>> scor
>> bblfish: ought to try to get ppl from america to come to the European
> events
>> 16:47
>> scor
>> harry: lack of funding
>> 16:47
>> harry
>> Yes, Matt Lee also needs travel funding :)
>> 16:47
>> bblfish
>> we need to get more  US people on webid bandwaggon
>> 16:47
>> scor
>> bblfish: we need more US in WebID HX in general
>> s/bblfish: we need more US in WebID HX in general/bblfish: we need more
> US
>> people in the WebID XG in general
>> 16:48
>> harry
>> http://www.w3.org/2010/07/community
>> 16:48mischat	has
>> 16:49
>> harry
>> "Community Groups"
>> Individuals can join, as individuals
>> 16:49
>> jeffsayre
>> +1
>> 16:49
>> harry
>> There will be no FEE
>> 16:49
>> scor
>> harry: allow incubator groups to transition to community groups
>> 16:49
>> harry
>> for joining a community group.
>> It will not Team Contact
>> 16:50
>> scor
>> will not have a team contact
>> 16:50
>> peterw
>> q+
>> 16:50Zakim	sees peterw on the speaker queue
>> 16:50
>> harry
>> We provide some (hopefully) blogging, in a dencentralized and
>> microblogging
>> 16:50
>> scor
>> might have federated microbloging
>> 16:50
>> harry
>> There is no charter end-date
>> 16:51
>> bblfish
>> q?
>> 16:51Zakim	sees peterw on the speaker queue
>> 16:51
>> scor
>> CG would be more appealing than current XG, or others. transition around
> April
>> peterw: how to get involved in the workshop in CA/MV?
>> harry: goals is to get IPs out of the standards
>> 16:53
>> bblfish
>> peterw: how did the W3C get involved in the California workshop. 16:53
>> scor
>> CG would be more lightweight, individuals can participate without any IP
> conflict with their employer
>> good move, e.g. no position paper required, and open hacking sessions
> include creative individuals in the process
>> peterw: seems the positon of the W3C has change over time wrt to
> certificates/browser vendors
>> 16:55
>> bblfish
>> peterw: has the W3C changed its heart on certificates or identity in the
> browser
>> 16:55
>> harry
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0222.html
>> 16:56
>> scor
>> harry: one of the reasons W3C didn't engage in the identity space: 1.
> patents
>> 16:56
>> harry
>> IETF
>> 16:56
>> scor
>> https: divison between data format (W3C) and protocols (IETF)
>> peterw: W3C was neutral and on the fence, 2 workshop to see if W3C
> should
>> be involved
>> in this identity topic
>> 16:58
>> scor
>> bblfish: we're reaching the hour
>> 16:58
>> scor
>> harry: W3C has to attempt to engage the community issue. push the Web as
> a
>> royalty free platform
>> if some part of the web are broken, ppl are tempted to use proprietary
> technologies
>> 16:59
>> bblfish
>> http://futureoftheinternet.org/
>> 16:59
>> mischat
>> http://www.amazon.com/Future-Internet-How-Stop/dp/0300124872
>> http://futureoftheinternet.org/download
>> 16:59
>> scor
>> W3C can only work as long as it gets concensus from its members
>> 16:59
>> mischat
>> the book is CC share alive 3.0 ^^
>> 17:00
>> scor
>> bblfish: get the bandwagon moving by building a network effect around WebID
>> bblfish: most important is to get demos working
>> 17:00
>> harry
>> yep, user-experience.
>> sslstrip
>> 17:01
>> bblfish
>> logout issue in ssl
>> 17:02
>> jeffsayre
>> bblfish: We still need to approve last meeting's minutes.
>> 17:02
>> scor
>> +1
>> 17:02
>> laszlo
>> +1
>> 17:02
>> jeffsayre
>> Thanks, Harry.
>> 17:02
>> laszlo
>> thank you
>> 17:02
>> bblfish
>> +1 for last meeting minutes
>> 17:03
>> jeffsayre
>> +1
>> 17:03
>> bblfish
>> bye harry
>> 17:03
>> Zakim
>> -MacTed
>> 17:03
>> scor
>> last meeting's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/03/07-webid-minutes.html
> 17:03
>> peterw
>> meeting ended?
>> 17:03
>> Zakim
>> -harry
>> 17:04
>> jeffsayre
>> Need to discuss position paper submission for Identity in the Browser
> workshop
>> 17:06
>> bblfish
>> action: make position paper for California paper, formulate messaging
> 17:06trackbot	noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
>> 17:06
>> trackbot
>> Sorry, couldn't find user - make
>> 17:06
>> scor
>> ACTION bblfish to make position paper for California paper, formulate
> messaging
>> 17:06trackbot	noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
>> 17:06
>> trackbot
>> Created ACTION-21 - Make position paper for California paper, formulate
> messaging [on Henry Story - due 2011-03-29].
>> 17:06
>> bblfish
>> action: to have biweelkly unformal meeting
>> 17:06trackbot	noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
>> 17:06
>> trackbot
>> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
>> 17:07
>> scor
>> ACTION bblfish to have biweelkly unformal meeting
>> 17:07trackbot	noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
>> 17:07
>> trackbot
>> Created ACTION-22 - Have biweelkly unformal meeting [on Henry Story -
> due
>> 2011-03-29].
>> 17:09
>> danbri [danbri@93.123.21.121] entered the room.
>> 17:09
>> mischat
>> +1 to that , what you can get in terms of benefits from webid followed
> by
>> a list of fixes which the browser vendors could provide to make webid an
> even smoother user experience
>> 17:16mischat	even I am following it now :)
>> 17:17
>> Zakim
>> -laszlo
>> 17:17
>> bblfish
>> bye
>> 17:17
>> Zakim
>> - +1.805.416.aadd
>> 17:17
>> jeffsayre
>> bye
>> 17:17
>> Zakim
>> -mischat
>> 17:17
>> mischat
>> bye all
>> 17:17
>> Zakim
>> -scor
>> - +1.574.277.aaaa
>> -yngve
>> 17:17
>> yngve left the room (quit: Quit: yngve).
>> 17:18
>> Zakim
>> -??P13
>> 17:18
>> bblfish
>> Now we have to close the meeting
>> 17:18
>> peterw
>> formally
>> 17:18
>> scor
>> bblfish: yes, can you do that?
>> 17:18
>> Zakim
>> -bblfish
>> 17:18
>> Zakim
>> INC_WEBID()11:00AM has ended
>> 17:18
>> Zakim
>> Attendees were bblfish, +1.574.277.aaaa, scor, +1.805.416.aacc, laszlo,
> mischat, harry, +1.805.416.aadd, +1.781.273.aaee, MacTed, yngve
>> 17:18
>> bblfish
>> ah it happens when everyone logs out of teleconf
>> 17:18
>> scor
>> bblfish: and generate the minutes
>> 17:19
>> peterw left the room.
>> 17:19
>> mischat
>> there was no rssagent
>> 17:19
>> claudio left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
>> 17:19
>> bblfish
>> no?
>> 17:19
>> scor
>> does that mean the minutes were not recorded?
>> 17:19
>> mischat
>> i am not sure
>> 17:19mischat	googles
>> 17:19
>> bblfish
>> well my client recorded them
>> 17:20
>> mischat
>> worth saving your client logs incase
> 
> 
> 

Social Web Architect
http://bblfish.net/
Received on Wednesday, 23 March 2011 01:06:30 GMT

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