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Re: AW: (regrets and schema.org)

From: Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 08:05:02 -0700
Message-ID: <20110617080502.12515i40ui406nmm@kcoyle.net>
To: public-xg-lld@w3.org
MEtadata embedded in HTML makes sense to me for web pages that  
otherwise would not have any metadata, but library data isn't web  
pages, it's data from a database. The fact that we display it in web  
pages is really incidental, and is not the primary way we want to  
interact in a machine-to-machine application. I can imagine that we  
might use HTML markup so that the library catalog displays can be  
easily captured by Zotero or some other browser-based app, but that's  
just capturing the data as data. I hope we are moving toward a more  
sophisticated environment where we do more than display and capture  
metadata from a "flat" page -- that's the promise of LOD, with  
linking, computability, etc.

kc

Quoting Neubert Joachim <J.Neubert@zbw.eu>:

> Hi Jeff,
>
> The integration into HTML - is it a bug or a feature? For us as  
> developers, it may be easier to deal with bulk "pure" RDF/XML (which  
> has its own atrocities, though) or Ntriples. But when I want to  
> convince people to provide semantic information, RDFa is invaluable  
> as it allows to show the immediate value added by this information  
> to a web page. It is easy to understand, easy to do (on a basic  
> level, at least) and has the charme of a singele "source"  
> representation from which other formats can be derived.
>
> For most datasets, bulk download are valueable, too. The point you  
> rise - could third party produce bulk downloads - is an interesting  
> one. If the license allows re-use, it should be no legal problem.  
> However, the question of keeping such bulk downloads up-to-date  
> remains, and maybe a central service which crawls the data on a  
> regualar basis such as Sindice could provide solutions for this.
>
> Cheers, Joachim
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: public-xg-lld-request@w3.org  
> [mailto:public-xg-lld-request@w3.org] Im Auftrag von Young,Jeff (OR)
> Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Juni 2011 04:47
> An: Neubert Joachim; William Waites; Emmanuelle Bermes
> Cc: public-xg-lld
> Betreff: RE: (regrets and schema.org)
>
> I think the main threat of schema.org to Library Linked Data is that  
> Microdata/Microformats (including RDFa) are tightly coupled with  
> HTML markup. Semantics embedded in HTML may suit the needs of major  
> search engines since they are crawling HTML documents anyway, but  
> these formats aren't really suitable for bulk delivery to other  
> interested parties. In principle, it would be possible for someone  
> to publish the extracted semantics in bulk form without the HTML  
> fluff (e.g. as RDF/XML or N-Triples), but what would the rights  
> implications of doing this be?
>
> Jeff
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: public-xg-lld-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xg-lld-
>> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Neubert Joachim
>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:56 AM
>> To: William Waites; Emmanuelle Bermes
>> Cc: public-xg-lld
>> Subject: AW: (regrets and schema.org)
>>
>> Hi William, hi Jeff,
>>
>> Thanks for getting this up so fast!
>>
>> A seperate section for Microdata, Microformats and RDFa is a very good
>> thing, because lots of people will be concerned about making descisions
>> on this. (Additionally, it is a good thing to drag RDFa out of the
>> Content Management Systems section, since RDFa is not restricted to
>> this field. The title and wording of the CMS section could be adapted
>> accordingly.) As a further suggestion, the more vocabulary related
>> Microdata/RDFa section should possibly precede the more development
>> oriented about web application frameworks, cms and web services.
>>
>> Re. the contents, my feeling is that the situation offers a lot of
>> options, which are not yet evaluated. One which perhaps should be
>> mentioned in the text is mixing schema.org and genuine RDF
>> vocabularies. This should be quite easy in RDFa:
>>
>> <div typeof="schema:ScholarlyArticle">
>>   <h2 property="schema:headline dc:title">Estimating the Effect of
>>   ...</h2>
>>   <p property="bibo:abstract">This paper uses the Five-Factor Model
>> ...</p>
>>   <span property="bibo:handle"
>> content="http://hdl.handle.net/10419/20518"/>
>>   ...
>>
>> This could be one of the possible ways to combine the expressiveness of
>> library or other RDF vocabs with the schema.org classes and properties
>> in order to optimize search engine visibility, which may be a main
>> concern for many organizations.
>>
>> Since currently no proven best practices for combing the approaches
>> exist (and their developement will heavily depend on experience with
>> the search engines crawling and ranking mechanisms - which will evolve
>> over time, too), we should mark that as an open field - while making a
>> strong point that schema.org and RDF(a) should in no way be treated as
>> mutually exclusive.
>>
>> Cheers, Joachim
>>
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: public-xg-lld-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xg-lld-request@w3.org]
>> Im Auftrag von William Waites
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Juni 2011 00:11
>> An: Emmanuelle Bermes
>> Cc: public-xg-lld
>> Betreff: (regrets and schema.org) Re: Agenda - June 16 2011 - LLD XG
>> telecon - 1000 EDT
>>
>> My apologies, I'll not be able to make the telecon tomorrow.
>>
>> Jeff and I have corresponded a bit about schema.org, and I've added
>> a short section to the Relevant Technologies section:
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies#M
>> icroformats.2C_Microdata_and_RDFa
>>
>> The gist is:
>>
>>   - microdata/schema.org is primarily intended for SEO
>>   - schema.org's vocabulary is heavy in the tourism and commerce areas
>>     and would need a lot of extension to do libraries
>>   - there is some level of interoperability with schema.rdfs.org
>>   - that interoperability only helps a little with interlinking
>> different
>>     library and other datasets
>>   - it is possible to feed the search engines RDFa
>>   - it is possible (modulo rumoured bugs) to feed the search engines
>> both
>>     RDFa and microdata from the same page
>>   - if you can't do RDF and can't do RDFa then some schema.org is
>> better
>>     than nothing
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -w
>>
>> * [2011-06-15 22:56:20 +0200] Emmanuelle Bermes <manue@figoblog.org>
>> écrit:
>>
>> ] Agenda - June 16 2011 - LLD XG telecon - 1000 EDT
>> ]
>> ] Time -
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons#Connection_info
>> ]      http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-
>> calendar.html#s_4061
>> ]      0700 Seattle - 1000 New York - 1500 London - 1600 Paris - 2300
>> Kuala Lumpur
>> ]      2400 Tokyo - 0200 Sydney (next day)
>> ]
>> ] W3C Library Linked Data Incubator group:
>> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/                   - home
>> page
>> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/              - wiki
>> ]       http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/      - group
>> list
>> ]       http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/         -
>> community list
>> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons      -
>> telecons
>> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/RunningAgenda -
>> "running agenda"
>> ]
>> ] Chair: Emmanuelle
>> ] Scribe: ?
>> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/ScribeDuty
>> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/Scribing.html - how to
>> ] Regrets:
>> ]
>> ]
>> ======================================================================
>> ] ADMIN
>> ] -- Minutes of previous telecons
>> ]   PROPOSED: To accept
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-lld-
>> minutes.html
>> ]
>> ] -- Telecons - http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons
>> ]      2011-06-23 Antoine (regrets Tom)
>> ]      2011-06-30 Emma (regrets Tom)
>> ]      2011-07-07 Emma (regrets Tom)
>> ]      2011-07-14 NO TELECON
>> ]      2011-07-21 Antoine (regrets Emma)
>> ]      2011-07-28 NO TELECON
>> ]      2011-08-04 Tom
>> ]      2011-08-11 NO TELECON
>> ]      2011-08-18 Antoine (regrets Emma)
>> ]      2011-08-25 final telecon (Tom)
>> ]
>> ] -- LOD-LAM summit (2011-06-02/03)
>> ]
>> ]      ACTION: Tom to send email to the LOD-LAM participants and create
>> ] a final version of the presentation [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/26-lld-
>> minutes.html#action01]
>> ]
>> ]
>> ======================================================================
>> ] FINAL REPORT
>> ] --
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportWithTransclusion
>> ] --
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportReviewerAssignment
>> s
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Antoine and Emmanuelle to talk about strategies for getting
>> ] comments at next call [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
>> minutes.html#action15]
>> ] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-
>> lld/2011May/0051.html
>> ] -- posting to a blog ?
>> ] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jun/0017.html
>> ]
>> ] Tom's proposal for a review strategy:
>> ] -- 2011-06-07: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-
>> lld/2011Jun/0002.html
>> ] -- 2011-06-09: discussion during call and refinement:
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-lld-
>> minutes.html
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Co-chairs to draft message to the community about review
>> ] between 16 June and 20 July - post before next call, on 16 June
>> ] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-
>> lld-minutes.html#action02]
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Jeff and William to propose text on microdata and schema.org
>> -
>> ] where in the report it should be discussed [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-lld-
>> minutes.html#action03]
>> ]
>> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ] EXECUTIVE SUMMARY (tbd)
>> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/ExecutiveSummary
>> ]
>> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ] "LIBRARY LINKED DATA": SCOPE OF THIS REPORT (Karen, Peter, Tom,
>> Gordon, Jodi)
>> ] --
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits#.22Library_Linked_Da
>> ta.22:_Scope_of_this_report
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: everyone to read
>> ]
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits#.22Library_Linked_Da
>> ta.22:_Scope_of_this_report
>> ] and do lightweight review [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
>> minutes.html#action04]
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Jodi to send email about Scope statement [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
>> minutes.html#action05]
>> ] --DONE: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-
>> lld/2011May/0048.html
>> ]
>> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ] BENEFITS OF LINKED DATA (Ed, Emmanuelle, Ross)
>> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Karen to edit the Benefits section [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/26-lld-
>> minutes.html#action06]
>> ] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-
>> lld/2011May/0080.html
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Tom to ask Hideaki or Dickson to review
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
>> minutes.html#action06]
>> ]
>> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ] AVAILABLE VOCABULARIES AND DATASETS (Antoine, Jeff, Marcia, William)
>> ] --
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Vocabularies_Datasets_S
>> ection
>> ]
>> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ] RELEVANT TECHNOLOGIES (Jeff)
>> ] --
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Gordon to review Relevant Technologies [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-lld-
>> minutes.html#action04]
>> ]
>> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ] IMPLEMENTATION CHALLENGES AND BARRIERS TO ADOPTION (Karen, Peter,
>> Tom,
>> ] Gordon, Jodi)
>> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Gordon and Karen to consider relation between problems and
>> ] limitation section and the library resource wiki page. [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/24-lld-
>> minutes.html#action01]
>> ] --
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_
>> data
>> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_Data_Resources
>> ]
>> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ] RECOMMENDATIONS AND NEXT STEPS (Karen, Peter, Tom, Gordon, Jodi)
>> ] --
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Jeff to review
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page
>> ] for next week [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
>> minutes.html#action12]
>> ] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011May/0052.html
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Tom to ask Dickson and Guenther if they could contribute
>> ] curriculum issues to the Recommendations Section [recorded in
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
>> minutes.html#action13]
>> ]
>> ]
>> ======================================================================
>> ] LIBRARY LINKED DATA: VOCABULARIES AND DATASETS - SEPARATE DELIVERABLE
>> ] (Antoine, Jeff, Marcia, William)
>> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Vocabulary_and_Dataset
>> ]    Two Clouds: Metadata Element Sets and Datasets/Value Vocabularies
>> ]
>> ]
>> ======================================================================
>> ] USE CASES (Daniel) - SEPARATE DELIVERABLE
>> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport
>> ]
>> ] ACTION: Jodi to review
>> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport for next week
>> ] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-
>> lld-minutes.html#action14]
>> ]
>> ]
>> ======================================================================
>> ] TRANSITION TO W3C COMMUNITY GROUP
>> ] -- http://www.w3.org/QA/2011/04/coming_soon_w3c_community_grou.html
>> ]    See also http://www.w3.org/2010/12/community/final
>> ]
>> ] 2011-05-12: Should inform W3C of intent to transition by 1 August for
>> ] transition on 1 September.
>> ]
>> ]
>> ======================================================================
>> ] AOB
>> ]
>>
>> --
>> William Waites                <mailto:ww@styx.org>
>> http://river.styx.org/ww/        <sip:ww@styx.org>
>> F4B3 39BF E775 CF42 0BAB  3DF0 BE40 A6DF B06F FD45
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
Karen Coyle
kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
ph: 1-510-540-7596
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet
Received on Friday, 17 June 2011 15:05:32 GMT

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