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minutes: RWAB XG call 2008-08-19 [draft]

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:06:00 +0100
To: public-xg-app-backplane@w3.org
Message-Id: <20080819144734.M3585@hicom.net>


minutes from today's RWAB XG teleconference are available online at:


following my signature as plain text, and as an IRC log at:


as usual, any corrections, clarifications, mis-attributions, or other
errors should be logged by replying-to this post on-list...

and this time, i quintuple checked the pointers!  also, i did not do 
a good job of minuting myself during the ARIA discussion, so i will
attempt to reiterate what we discussed as regards ARIA in a post to 
the list, A.S.A.P. -- if anyone has any specific questions, please 
do not hesitate to ask on-list or to go to the #wai-aria channel on 
the W3C IRC server (irc.w3.org) to ask those involved in ARIA 
deployment and development



                                   - DRAFT -

                         RWAB XG Weekly Teleconference

19 Aug 2008


   See also: IRC log [http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-irc]


          Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jack_Jansen, John_Boyer, Steven,
          Rahul_on_IRC, Kevin_on_IRC




     * Topics
         1. Starting Up - Agenda Review
         2. ARIA-Enabled - What Does It Mean?
         3. Toolbag Review
     * Summary of Action Items

   <scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

   <scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

   <Charlie> not so far, no


   <Charlie> lost you

Starting Up - Agenda Review

   1. Starting work on the XForms simplified syntax in the Ubiquity
   project. How (or is) this related to the Backplane?

   2. Plans for demo(s) -- what can we show given current focus areas? a.
   custom controls for ubiquity library in YUI; b. Data model integration
   in YUI and Dojo; C. SMIL integration with XForms models; d. Extending
   the simple loan form with accessibility features (ARIA enabled loan

   3. Finalize goals for joint meetings at Tech Plenary -- given the
   above, which WGs to meet?

   for reference:

   CW: discuss ARIA and XForms - talk about what it means to be "ARIA
   enabled" - bit more context might lead into main topic - plan for TPAC
   ... email with Debi Dahl - MMI WG or Voice/MMI joint meeting - an hour
   on tuesday or thursday
   ... liaising with PF WG and Al Gilman
   ... John, web-apps APIs - forms discussion and backplane discussion
   ... how does all of what we've discussed fit together; cross-over with
   groups we want to meet with at TPAC2008

ARIA-Enabled - What Does It Mean?

   CW: connect dots between ARIA properties and xforms ubiquity project -
   loan example

   GJR: ARIA discussion

   CW: dojo starts with div - causes dojo runtime to expand that and then
   render DIV in accordance to script block

   <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/

   <Steven> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/


   CW: ubiquity xforms supports data-binding, xforms notification events
   - controls extended to accessibility APIs
   ... need to do more than support @role - can understand how would hook
   ... example of what should do for TPAC -
   ... interesting thread of investigation
   ... how much can be leveraged out of widgets in dojo

   GJR: also YUI supporting ARIA

   CW: data model work in dojo ported to YUI

Toolbag Review

   CW: what makes sense and who to contact at TPAC
   ... base work on ubiquity library itself - XML Events and work towards
   embedding xforms functionality in AJAX and dojo
   ... ubiquity not yet fully implemented - can mix and match as needed
   ... ubiquity cross-platform delivery programming model -
   ... custom control - how to use native components in calendars or
   color picker - binding presentatino object using XForms; data model
   refactoring data model; SMIL state oriented API - bridging mechanism;
   not just GUI methodology but multi-modal methodology
   ... decide on core scenario or demo
   ... thoughts from those on call - who to impact, what specifics to
   discuss, what best demo to cover as many cases as possible
   ... contact with Voice and WAI-PF

   JB: not had a chance to put anything together - interested in (a)
   modularizatino of components - how much will be available; modules
   used independently would have IDL libraries associated with them, not
   just declarative markup
   ... interest in how the things actually work to create behavior
   ... short of m12n, ubiquity library - through script libraries able to
   achieve functionality which xforms rec specified; for large classses
   of W3C technologies not being held back by UA implementatino; scripts
   could wire together a centralized data model using components from
   data libraries bilaterally communicationg; W3C markups that
   automatically imply behaviors from other W3C specs; xforms controls
   needs note that input is "rude"
   ... messaging about core library without modularization

   CW: isn't this all an XBL story? using XBL in stripped down version
   due to lack of UA support
   ... doesn't detract from core of JB's point; what we want is clean
   runtime support for w3c supplied program letter

   SP: second a lot of what JB said; i see our main message being W3C
   architecture where W3C techs can be plugged together; don't have to
   define techs monolithically, but can be pieced together, important
   top-level message; should be unified visino of how W3C should work
   ... second message to communicate is don't have to depend on UA devs
   to achieve this - can still make happen because UAs are extensible via
   script that is largely invisible/under the covers

   CW: could make points with non-modularized ubiquity - runs in YUI, has
   controls associated with it, but is still xforms 1.1 app

   SP: dojo is extending UAs without UAs having anything to do with it;
   W3C technologies can be leveraged to do the very same thing

   CW: added load method to trigger reloading - flags events when done

   JB: that's good

   CW: more confident - might have utility for non-xforms markup -
   especially from behavior POV; can talk about this with Forms WG

   JB: flickr demo, too - uses separate modules; don't need to have m12n
   complete to get out message - W3C standards and features can be
   supported, m12n promotes greater adoption and interoperability
   ... platform message - can make argument that AJAX/Javascript library
   allows w3c techs to be implemented and provided without the UA
   participation; allows us as community to find out what works, what
   needws work, proof-of-value; may sway UA devs for native support
   ... XBL skimmed down due to IE limitations; another data point for
   native XBL - XForms component becaumes popular, will be demand for
   native UA support

   CW: messaging around core ubiquity library - embedding in YUI and CSS
   - refactoring data side would be strong message in aand of itself

   JB: same class of small apps - purchase order form - more dynamic than
   just repeat; if can show accessiblity smarts, that is good third
   message to bring to we apps group - creating content with xforms,
   gettting good accessibility behavior, just using dojo library would
   have to do yourself;
   ... first ring: javascript/AJAX for implementation of W3C techs;
   second: modularization; third: accessibility automatic behaviors can
   get amongst separate techs through platform

   CW: extend ubiquity xforms with subset of notations

   cak jackjansen

   JJ: fourth ring follows from second and third - if write web apps
   modularized and with ARIA, can be leveraged to DI - could have big
   impact on way web app devs can get stuff out

   JB: 1 strength is multi-modality (re-targetting) - always address from
   implementor side; JJ descirbed how web app community could do this
   with module replacement - verb part of our noun

   CW: like the 4 rings as message

   JB: how do you write a dojo app - adding controls to elements that ask
   for certain scripted behavior - showing simplified syntax very
   appealing to web apps group - looks like what they are used to
   (controls with attributeds) - can be done both ways

   CW: content-generation model - empty page with DIVs - content
   generated underneath div for content generation; sitll there, but one
   step abstracted
   ... presentation generation

   JB: there is nothing strange about set of W3C techs we are providing;
   looks, works, and smells like dojo

   CW: content generation cycle - about to get into design discussions -
   repeatable process with multiple iterations over time
   ... looping manner aspect very useful
   ... backplane XG connection with authoring and composability of w3c
   artifacts and how relate to web and serve as components that can be
   mixed and matched; content generation at page load
   ... thanks for pointing that out
   ... syntax, demos - what else?
   ... consider JJ's SMIL demo something in back pocket; could do demo on
   my machine
   ... GJR follow up offline on accessibility stuff

   GJR: yes will work on simple loan app

   JB: one hope is might be able to ARIA enable processor

   CW: do version of abstract control that is ARIA-enabled; loan form
   good because only few element types

   JJ, accessibility equals accessibility; m12n equals modularization

   <Steven> ack -

   thanks steven

   CW: can join Forms call

   JB: might help if you do it; can get Forms WG on thursday
   ... both backplane and forms meeting

   CW: separate conversation around simplified syntax with HTML guys

   JB: right

   CW: anything else for today?
   ... regrets for upcoming meetings?
   ... push ahead then


Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 19 August 2008 16:06:38 UTC

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