Re: AIN, NOBI and composition

So I wouldn't have any problems with "No" in the text too, perhaps it would send a stronger message which is probably not to bad at all. If text said "No other behaviors are to be applied for the alternative" (copying from Chris's text) and then concluded with something like "not follwing this advice may result in the undefined behaviour" then it would be fine. But if adding a clarification like this can introduce some complex interpretations then I'd be just fine without this clarification

Cheers, Sergey

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sergey Beryozkin 
  To: Ashok Malhotra ; Christopher B Ferris 
  Cc: Daniel Roth ; David Orchard ; public-ws-policy@w3.org ; public-ws-policy-request@w3.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:16 PM
  Subject: Re: AIN, NOBI and composition


  Hi

  IMHO it's 

  Don't know.  Can't tell

  it seems actually the same as "No" to be honest. It's all just the game of words to me, sorry, I'm showing my ignorabce here :-) "No" in this means to me that if you apply C then the spec says "Don't know.  Can't tell" what's going to happen. In other words, the results are undefined

  Thanks, Sergey
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Ashok Malhotra 
    To: Christopher B Ferris 
    Cc: Daniel Roth ; David Orchard ; public-ws-policy@w3.org ; public-ws-policy-request@w3.org 
    Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:08 PM
    Subject: RE: AIN, NOBI and composition


    I'm trying to ask a very simple question and am being deflected by words.

    Here is another attempt using the 'b' word.   Please just select from one of the multiple choice alternatives.

     

    If the selected policy is 
     <policy>
         <A/>

          <B/>
    </policy>>  



    Can I apply the behavior(s) implied by C, an assertion which is not contained in the selected policy alternative?

     

    -         Yes

    -          No

    -          Don't know.  Can't tell

    -          All of the above.

    All the best, Ashok 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com] 
    Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 6:12 AM
    To: Ashok Malhotra
    Cc: Daniel Roth; David Orchard; public-ws-policy@w3.org; public-ws-policy-request@w3.org
    Subject: RE: AIN, NOBI and composition

     


    I don't know what C or Z imply. Again, you keep adding assertions to the mix. The statement we proposed 
    says NOTHING about assertions. It speaks ONLY about BEHAVIORS. 

    I cannot make this any more clear than that. 

    There are a set of behaviors implied by the set of assertions IN an alternative. 
    Those and ONLY THOSE implied behaviors are to be applied, full stop. 

    Cheers, 

    Christopher Ferris
    STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
    email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
    blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
    phone: +1 508 377 9295 

    public-ws-policy-request@w3.org wrote on 05/10/2007 08:48:27 AM:

    > Chris: 
    > I was being deliberately provocative to get you to spell out the 
    > exact semantics.  So, if the selected policy is 
    >  <policy>
    >      <A/>
    >      <B/>
    > </policy> 
    >   
    > What can I do, or can I not do wrt C or Z? 
    > All the best, Ashok 
    > 
    > From: public-ws-policy-request@w3.org [mailto:public-ws-policy-
    > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Christopher B Ferris
    > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:02 AM
    > To: Ashok Malhotra
    > Cc: Daniel Roth; David Orchard; public-ws-policy@w3.org; public-ws-
    > policy-request@w3.org
    > Subject: RE: AIN, NOBI and composition 
    >   
    > 
    > Ashok, 
    > 
    > Bzzzt. 
    > 
    > Where in the text that I have offered is the RFC2119 keyword "MUST 
    > NOT"? The proposal that IBM has offered 
    > does NOT require that you know the unknowable (the complete set of 
    > policy alternatives in the universe). 
    > The proposal we have offered is an attempt to make it clear that a 
    > policy alternative is a complete 
    > expression of the set of behaviors to be engaged. 
    > 
    > If we have the "makes no claims" interpretation, then a policy 
    > author is free to (for instance) exclude the 
    > security policy necessary to the interaction on the grounds that it 
    > is too complicated. Thus, an endpoint 
    > wishing to interact with an endpoint whose policy was authored by 
    > this lazy policy author would find 
    > out the hard way that the message needed to be signed and encrypted 
    > in order to be processed. 
    > 
    > We believe that in order for policy to have value, it must be a 
    > complete expression of the behaviors 
    > that are engaged for purposes of interaction. 
    > 
    > This has nothing to do with omniscience of policy assertion 
    > vocabularies and exclusion of the 
    > set of behaviors implied by those absent from a given policy alternative. 
    > 
    > IBM wants a policy alternative to be able to be taken at face value 
    > as the expression of the 
    > set of behaviors that are to be used to interact (interoperate) with
    > the attached policy subject. 
    > 
    > Cheers, 
    > 
    > Christopher Ferris
    > STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
    > email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
    > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
    > phone: +1 508 377 9295 
    > 
    > public-ws-policy-request@w3.org wrote on 05/09/2007 06:11:23 PM:
    > 
    > > 
    > > Yes, David, I agree.  Let me put it more starkly.
    > > Chris' proposal is that if the agreed on policy is:
    > > 
    > > <policy>
    > >     <A/>
    > >     <B/>
    > > </policy>
    > > 
    > > Then you MUST NOT do assertion X or Y or any other assertions for 
    > that matter.
    > > 
    > > This means that you must know the universe of all possible assertions.
    > > The <encoding> assertion is one you may not think about but unless 
    > > you specify <encoding> you cannot do it, according to this proposal.
    > > 
    > > 
    > > All the best, Ashok
    > > 
    > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > From: public-ws-policy-request@w3.org [mailto:public-ws-policy-
    > > > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of David Orchard
    > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 9:24 AM
    > > > To: Daniel Roth; Ashok Malhotra; public-ws-policy@w3.org
    > > > Subject: RE: AIN, NOBI and composition
    > > > 
    > > > 
    > > > We continue to talk past each other.  I think the following two
    > > > sentences are equivalent:
    > > > "No behaviors are to be applied for the alternative other than the
    > > > behaviors specified by the assertions in the alternative"
    > > > "The absence of an assertion means that the behaviour specified by the
    > > > absent assertion should not be applied".
    > > > 
    > > > Cheers,
    > > > Dave
    > > > 
    > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > From: Daniel Roth [mailto:Daniel.Roth@microsoft.com]
    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:52 PM
    > > > > To: David Orchard; Ashok Malhotra; public-ws-policy@w3.org
    > > > > Subject: RE: AIN, NOBI and composition
    > > > >
    > > > > > AIN Closed flavour: Any assertion not in an alternative
    > > > > should not be
    > > > > > applied (revised chris proposal)
    > > > >
    > > > > Chris' revised proposal doesn't say anything about the
    > > > > absence of assertions.  It simply says that no behaviors are
    > > > > to be applied for the alternative other than the behaviors
    > > > > specified by the assertions in the alternative.
    > > > >
    > > > > Daniel Roth
    > > > >
    > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > From: David Orchard [mailto:dorchard@bea.com]
    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:42 PM
    > > > > To: Ashok Malhotra; Daniel Roth; public-ws-policy@w3.org
    > > > > Subject: RE: AIN, NOBI and composition
    > > > >
    > > > > Well, I think we need to have clear wording for all the "alternatives"
    > > > > before the working group.
    > > > >
    > > > > The way I see it:
    > > > > AIN Vocabulary flavour: Any assertion not in a vocabulary
    > > > > should not be applied (Original chris proposal) AIN Closed
    > > > > favour: Any assertion not in an alternative should not be
    > > > > applied (revised chris proposal) AIN Removal: Any assertion
    > > > > not in alternative means nothing.  It may or may not be applied.
    > > > >
    > > > > Cheers,
    > > > > Dave
    > > > >
    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > > From: Ashok Malhotra [mailto:ashok.malhotra@oracle.com]
    > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:29 PM
    > > > > > To: Daniel Roth; David Orchard; public-ws-policy@w3.org
    > > > > > Subject: RE: AIN, NOBI and composition
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Dan:
    > > > > > I'm sorry, but that's not how I read it.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > My reading is that you CANNOT apply assertions that are not in the
    > > > > > selected alternative.  That, to me feels like negation.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I think we shd get behind Monica's explicit wording that eliminates
    > > > > > the fuzz factor.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > All the best, Ashok
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > > > From: public-ws-policy-request@w3.org [mailto:public-ws-policy-
    > > > > > > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Roth
    > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:12 PM
    > > > > > > To: David Orchard; public-ws-policy@w3.org
    > > > > > > Subject: RE: AIN, NOBI and composition
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > This is exactly the problem with tying negation semantics to the
    > > > > > > absence of assertion types (AIN).
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > IBM's proposal fixes this by simply saying you do what you
    > > > > > assert and
    > > > > > > nothing else (NOBI).
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Daniel Roth
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > > > From: public-ws-policy-request@w3.org [mailto:public-ws-policy-
    > > > > > > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of David Orchard
    > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:23 PM
    > > > > > > To: public-ws-policy@w3.org
    > > > > > > Subject: AIN, NOBI and composition
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I wonder about AIN, NOBI, etc. and composition.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Imagine that WS-I produces an assertion that says a "RSPAssertion"
    > > > > > > means RMAssertion and Security, perhaps exactly one of
    > > > > > > messageSecurity|transportsecurity.  What's the meaning
    > > > > when some of
    > > > > > > messageSecurity|the
    > > > > > > assertions that are in the composition are missing?  For
    > > > > example, I
    > > > > > > just say RSPAssertion.  I don't say RMAssertion, though
    > > > > > RMAssertion is
    > > > > > > in the vocabulary.  If I get an intersection that says
    > > > > RSPAssertion
    > > > > > > but not RMAssertion, AIN has the implication that you
    > > > > > shouldn't apply
    > > > > > > RMAssertion yet RSPAssertion does.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > We don't say anything about whether an assertion that means a
    > > > > > > behaviour "trumps" the lack of such an assertion.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > With AIN, there's a problem.  Without AIN, there's no
    > > > > > problem because
    > > > > > > there's no conflict.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Cheers,
    > > > > > > Dav3e
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > 
    > > 
    > > 

Received on Thursday, 10 May 2007 15:54:51 UTC