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Draft Minutes: 11 January 2011 voice conf

From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 12:06:52 -0500
Message-ID: <4D2C8E2C.50705@nokia.com>
To: "public-webevents@w3.org" <public-webevents@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the January 11 voice conference are available at 
the following and copied below:

   http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-minutes.html

WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send 
them to the public-webevents mail list before January 18 (the next voice 
conference); otherwise these minutes will be considered Approved.

-Art Barstow

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     Web Events WG Voice Conference

11 Jan 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/0001.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Anders_Höckersten, Sangwhan_Moon,
           Doug_Schepers, Matt_Brubeck, Josh_Soref

    Regrets
    Chair
           Art

    Scribe
           Art

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Tweak the agenda
          2. [6]Use Cases and requirements
          3. [7]Landscape wiki
          4. [8]Specs
          5. [9]Mouse Capture
          6. [10]AoB
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB

<scribe> Scribe: Art

    Date: 11 January 2011

Tweak the agenda

    AH: I work for Opera in Sweden

<mbrubeck> sorry I'm late, dialing in now

    AB: agenda posted yesterday (
    [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/
    0001.html ). Any change requests?

      [12] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/0001.html

    DS: I have some additions

<mbrubeck> That's me

    DS: there is a proposal from Nokia to talk about
    ... there is another issue we didn't cover in D3E that we may want
    to capture here
    ... and that is mouse capture

    AB: we can include them during the specs topic

Use Cases and requirements

    AB: other than the UCs and requirements Cathy sent to the list last
    month (
    [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2010OctDec/
    0005.html ), there have been no additional UCs and requirements
    inputs. I encourage everyone to submit them.
    ... Cathy, are the UCs and requirements in your input addressed by
    the spec you submitted to the WG yesterday?

      [13] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2010OctDec/0005.html

    CC: yes, I believe they are

    AB: ok; just wanted to clarify
    ... the requirements are required in later stages of the W3C
    recommendation process

Landscape wiki

    AB: Doug and I added a couple of additional resources to the
    landscape wiki ( [14]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/Landscape
    ). Everyone should consider that wiki as community property and
    edit/update accordingly.
    ... any other comments on this wiki?

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/Landscape

    CC: in the landscape is a link to Ilkka's proposal
    ... and it is same doc that I submitted to the list yesterday
    ... as such, the wiki should be updated to just point to the doc I
    submitted

<scribe> ACTION: barstow update the landscape doc so that Ilkka's
    spec is replaced with Cathy's spec of Jan 10 [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Update the landscape doc so that
    Ilkka's spec is replaced with Cathy's spec of Jan 10 [on Arthur
    Barstow - due 2011-01-18].

Specs

    AB: Doug, what's the status of your initial drafts?

    DS: I created some initial drafts
    ... not quite ready to be checked in
    ... hope to get something to review by the end of this week
    ... I may use CVS rather than Mercurial

    AB: that is fine with me

<shepazu> mouse capture:
    [16]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557

      [16] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557

    AB: Cathy submitted an input to the list yesterday (
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/
    att-0002/TransformActionProposal.html ).

      [17] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/att-0002/TransformActionProposal.html

    CC: the spec we are proposing addresses the representation level of
    user interactions
    ... physical touch events from UA to web apps is very low level
    ... our spec introduces higher level action such as zoom, pan
    ... have a transaction start event
    ... and then update events that include data like the action e.g.
    pan/zoom/etc.
    ... Allows authors to use high level events

    AB: any intial questions or comments for Cathy?

    DS: I think this is a good match for the existing transforms for SVG
    and CSS

    CC: ok

    MB: do you have a specific/concrete interaction that would trigger
    these events?
    ... e.g. 3 fingers on a touch screen

    CC: that's up to the UA
    ... e.g. multiple touches, shaking device
    ... meant to be open to the impl

    MB: have you doen any impl work with this?
    ... want to know how it works with the DOM

    CC: we did some impl in Starlight project
    ... and it uses multi-touch
    ... my email to the list included a link

    SM: scale and rotate are the same events

<mbrubeck> The link [18]http://opensource.nokia.com/Starlight
    currently redirects to
    [19]http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Nokia_Open_Source

      [18] http://opensource.nokia.com/Starlight
      [19] http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Nokia_Open_Source

    SM: wondering why they weren't separated

    DS: I believe the intent is to allow any given gesture to comprise
    more than one compent
    ... could do more than one thing
    ... if scroll up and to the right, don't know if user is trying two
    things or one

<mbrubeck> If you think of using these events to implement a UI like
    [20]http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/08/firefox4-beta3/

      [20] http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/08/firefox4-beta3/

<mbrubeck> then it makes sense that it would rotate and scale
    simultaneously.

<cathy> The link to starlight should be:
    [21]http://starlight-webkit.org/Starlight/

      [21] http://starlight-webkit.org/Starlight/

    MB: the example above does two things at once

    DS: yes; this would scale and rotate
    ... so Matt, do you agree with that aspect of the TransAction spec?

    MB: yes, I think this is a reasonable constraint

    DS: someone asked if we are going to have literal mapping of 2
    fingers on screen and one somewhere else and tie them to specific
    gestures
    ... we need to map between a defined gesture and an action such as
    zoom/pan/rotate
    ... it would be appropriate for us in our non-normative docs to
    outline specific gesture such as 3 finger down means something like
    zoom/pan/rotate

    AB: thanks for clarifying that

Mouse Capture

<Sangwhan_Moon>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557

      [22] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557

<shepazu> [23]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557

      [23] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557

    DS: if you grab the scrollbar and move it up/down and then the mouse
    strays off the scrollbar
    ... or if you scroll down on a dropdown list
    ... We talked about defining this in D3Events
    ... and then thought Mouse Capture should be defined in this WG
    ... have been implemented in IE and perhaps Gecko

<mbrubeck>
    [24]https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element.setCapture

      [24] https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element.setCapture

<mbrubeck> "Introduced in Gecko 2.0"

<mbrubeck> (i.e. Firefox 4)

    DS: Authors will want to do similar things for their own custom UI
    elements (widgets)
    ... the bug report is about setCapture and releaseCapture
    ... My intent, unless there is an objection, is to define setCapture
    and releaseCapture

    AB: you would define them in one of the specs you already commited
    or a new spec?

    DS: not a great fit for either one of them
    ... could go in either spec

    AB: perhaps a new/separate spec

    DS: it's more low-level
    ... so that is probably more appropriate

    AB: is there any spec in W3C that defines these?

    DS: no, I don't think so

<timeless_mbp> ack me yielding to Sangwhan_Moon

    SM: this may have some security implications

<timeless_mbp> Zakim: ack me yielding to Sangwhan_Moon

    SM: and may not work with platform widgets
    ... could have some interop problems
    ... may need a visual indicator so user doesn't get confused

    DS: I think we can deal with this in the security section of the
    spec
    ... agree there is at least one security issue here
    ... If a widget overlays everything on the screen and events are
    sent to a snooping server, there could be a prob
    ... Think a security note for implementations would address the
    problem

<timeless_mbp> I'm concerned about security. But i don't object to
    it being added to Low Level

    AB: does anyone object to setCapture and releaseCapture being
    included in Dougs's low-leve spec?
    ... adding something does not mean discussion is ended

    DS: yes, adding it the spec just starts the conversation

    RESOLUTION: group agrees setCapture and releaseCapture events will
    be added to the low-level spec

    DS: in the charter, says an author can map low level events to high
    level intenstional events
    ... e.g. a double-tap can mean something special in my app
    ... and override the UA's default behaviour which could be zoom/pan
    ... We won't define specific gestures
    ... but could define a way to define gestures

    AH: this would lead to device specific pages

    DS: that can be done today; can't stop it

    AB: so you want to know if this would be useful?

    DS: yes, and if so, want to know if there are solutions

<timeless_mbp> so,...

    AB: you may want to pose this on the list

<timeless_mbp> i'd like to let an app expose a way to tell users...

    DS: don't think we need a decision now but we do need to take a
    stand

<timeless_mbp> "I have these actions available" <graphical-list>

<timeless_mbp> "You can select an action"

    DS: Don't want to over engineer the problem

<timeless_mbp> "Please gesture to define how to trigger this action"

    DS: but I think people will ask for something like this

<timeless_mbp> that would enable the user to train a local gesture
    to map to a high level custom event

    AB: agree, in the abstract, something like that would be useful

    DS: customization would be especially useful for Accessibility use
    cases

<timeless_mbp> Accessibility for disadvantaged users and users of
    disadvantaged devices :)

    ACTION schepers ask the mail list for specific proposals re custom
    low-level to high-level event mapping

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Ask the mail list for specific
    proposals re custom low-level to high-level event mapping [on Doug
    Schepers - due 2011-01-18].

    AB: +1 to Sangwhan re tricky to implement

    DS: agree; perhaps a v2 feature

<timeless_mbp> fwiw, i worry that we might not encourage vendors to
    do this, even though i think it'll be rather important for certain
    devices (esp legacy)

    AB: anything else before AoB

    DS: AoB = any other business

AoB

    AB: next call?

    DS: don't want a call until after I have something published
    ... schedule a call for next week and we will cancel it if I can't a
    spec out to review

<mbrubeck> I added a link to a useful starlight doc/spec page on
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/Landscape

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/Landscape

    DS: who volunteered to Edit?

    SM: I did

    MB: me too

    SM: I prefer Mercurial but with a doc, CVS is fine

<timeless_mbp> (I'm still on record as offering support for Hg)

    MB: prefer Mercurial but can live with CVS

<timeless_mbp> technically Hg can help if you have someone (like me)
    making random minor cleanup bits

    MB: lots more flexible for Mercurial

    DS: let me dig into this a bit

<timeless_mbp> shepazu: what OS are you on?

    AB: there could be less work with Mercurial because CVS requires
    public keys

<timeless_mbp> seriously?

<timeless_mbp> shepazu: [26]http://jasonfharris.com/machg/

      [26] http://jasonfharris.com/machg/

    AB: ok, tentatively we have a meeting on January 18; will be
    canceled if Doug does not get a spec out before then

<mbrubeck> (some of my first programming experience was on BeOS)

    AB: meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: barstow update the landscape doc so that Ilkka's spec
    is replaced with Cathy's spec of Jan 10 [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 11 January 2011 17:07:17 GMT

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