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[widgets] Draft Minutes from 28 May 2009 Voice Conference

From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:59:46 -0400
Message-Id: <A7817F5C-47EC-472A-93EB-5A5A527C911F@nokia.com>
To: public-webapps <public-webapps@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the May 28 Widgets voice conference are  
available at the following and copied below:

       <http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-wam-minutes.html>

WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send  
them to the public-webapps mail list before 4 June 2009 (the next  
Widgets voice conference); otherwise these minutes will be considered  
Approved.

-Regards, Art Barstow

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                        Widgets Voice Conference

28 May 2009

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0622.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-wam-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Benoit, Thomas, Marcos, Arve, Robin, David, Art, Mike,
           Marcin, Bryan

    Regrets
           Josh, Frederick, AndyS

    Chair
           Art

    Scribe
           Art

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Review and tweak agenda
          2. [6]Announcements
          3. [7]Access Requests (WAR) spec: Call for Use Cases and
             Requirements
          4. [8]WAR spec: Security Model
          5. [9]A&E spec: Status of Red Block Issues
          6. [10]Window Modes spec
          7. [11]Widget URIs spec
          8. [12]AOB
      * [13]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB

    <scribe> Scribe: Art

    Date: 28 May 2009

Review and tweak agenda

    AB: draft agenda posted May 27
    ([14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    622.html). Any change requests?

      [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0622.html).

    [ None ]

Announcements

    AB: I have two short announcements: 1) f2f agenda has been updated
    ([15]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WidgetsLondonJune2009#Agend
    a_Items); 2) P&C LCWD#2 published today
    ([16]http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-widgets-20090528/). Comment period
    ends June 19. The comment period will not be extended. Comments will
    be accepted after June 19 but will not be included in the LC's
    Disposition of Comments document.

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/ 
WidgetsLondonJune2009#Agenda_Items);
      [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-widgets-20090528/).

    <scribe> ACTION: barstow discuss London f2f meeting time for Widgets
    DigSig [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-wam-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-346 - Discuss London f2f meeting time for
    Widgets DigSig [on Arthur Barstow - due 2009-06-04].

    AB: any other annoucements?

    DR: today OMTP will release Approve v1.0 BONDI

Access Requests (WAR) spec: Call for Use Cases and Requirements

    AB: on May 21 I issued a Call for Inputs
    ([18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    571.html) regarding UCs and Reqs for the WAR spec
    ([19]http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-access/). So far the only
    response was from Scott Wilson
    ([20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    581.html).
    ... I think it is important to clearly articulate the primary Use
    Case (or Use Cases) and the main requirements. Without such
    information we subject ourselves to lots of questions about what
    motivates the prescribed model. The WAR spec explicitly identifies
    two relevant requirements in the Reqs Doc
    ([21]http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-reqs/#default-security-policy).
    ... let's start with Scott's input
    ([22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    581.html). Comments?

      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0571.html)
      [19] http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-access/).
      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0581.html).
      [21] http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-reqs/#default-security-policy).
      [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0581.html).

    <drogersuk> @tlr - oh dear ;-)

    AB: Marcos, have you looked at Scott's comments?

    MC: no, not yet

    Arve: I think Scott's input is in line with what we have in mind
    ... so I'm OK with what he wrote but some may not be directly in
    scope for the WAR spec
    ... e.g. some may be addressed by the Widget UA itself
    ... but the requiement itself is OK

    RB: yes, agree it is a good req
    ... but may need some work

    TR: the rationale has a lot of solutions so may want to remove some
    of the mechanism
    ... think Adam asked some good questions
    ... we need to address those issues
    ... by having some reqs
    ... don't want reqs to have detailed mechanisms
    ... need to articulate widgets versus the broader web model

    AB: sounds like we don't have all of the requirements defined

    BS: I can submit some requirements before the f2f meeting

    TR: my suggestion is that Robin begin a draft of reqs and send it to
    me and Arve
    ... and then once we have agreement we can send to the list

    BS: is the call for UCs complete?

    Arve: no, I think we've just started

    BS: I can provide some UCs if people want them

    <scribe> ACTION: berjon submit requirements for WAR spec to
    public-webapps [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-wam-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-347 - Submit requirements for WAR spec to
    public-webapps [on Robin Berjon - due 2009-06-04].

    AB: are you saying you already submitted some UC info to
    public-webapps?

    BS: I did send some feedback re the access element and proposed some
    attributes

    <scribe> ACTION: sullivan submit Use Case input before the London
    f2f meeting [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-wam-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-348 - Submit Use Case input before the
    London f2f meeting [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2009-06-04].

    TR: need UC for net access from widget
    ... need to differentiate widget versus web page

    BS: I think both have issues with unrestricted access to the web
    ... can describe the diff between the two via use cases

    Arve: widgets are applications that simply use web technologies
    ... but they are no different than desktop apps
    ... at least that is how I think about it

    AB: Arve, Marcos - are there some explicit or implicit requirements
    from Opera's Widgets Security Model document
    ([25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2008Apr/a
    tt-0096/w3c-security.html) we should use?

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/ 
2008Apr/att-0096/w3c-security.html)

WAR spec: Security Model

    AB: the WAR spec's Security Model is a bit thin and includes a
    Warning about their not being consensus on the model. There was also
    a renewal of an older thread by Josh
    ([26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    600.html) that lead to a discussion about origin
    ([27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    608.html) and other things e.g. unique identifiers.
    ... not sure if we should dig into the threads or talk more about
    how to make progress.
    ... what do the Editors need from the rest of us?

      [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0600.html)
      [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0608.html)

    Arve: don't think we can make progress until we have an agreed
    definition of "ORIGIN"

    AB: agree with that

    RB: yes; plus we need to get agreed reqs

    AB: agree with that too

    RB: I think we need to nail dow the reqs first

    AB: OK, then let's stop the discussion on WAR today until the
    actions are completed
    ... any last comments about the WAR spec?

    TR: can we change the name to PEACE?

A&E spec: Status of Red Block Issues

    AB: the A&E spec still has some Red Block issues
    ([28]http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-api/). During the 14 May
    call we briefly discussed these issues
    ([29]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-wam-minutes.html#item07). What is
    the status of this spec?

      [28] http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-api/).
      [29] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-wam-minutes.html#item07).

    <tlr> only if we get Tolstoy to edit it

    MC: I started editing this today; not much new to report
    ... hope to spend more time on it soon
    ... can't give a specific date when LC will be ready
    ... Storage needs some work

    Arve: yes, Storage needs some thought
    ... Adam Barth mentioned that yesterday
    ... need to get Storage and origin sorted out

    AB: you two are on it?

    MC: yes

    Arve: we must first get an agreed defintion of Origin

    <tlr> I wonder what happened to this thread:
    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/03
    01.html

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0301.html

    Arve: if we don't use HTML5 Origin, what do we do?
    ... don't think we want to write our own

    RB: writing our own doesn't sound good

    Arve: Thomas was suggesting HTML5's definition of Origin may not be
    good enough
    ... via a discussion with Anne in IRC

    <tlr> tr: discussion yesterday was about an issue with postMessage

    <tlr>
    [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0478.htm
    l

      [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/ 
0478.html

    <tlr> tr: solutions: (A) fix postMessage (B) don't use synthetic
    origins in widget (C) both

    AB: not sure how we can move the origin discussion toward closure

    <tlr> tr: what's the new piece vs the thread in April?

    <tlr> ab: want to understand what Adam's concern is

Window Modes spec

    <tlr> tr: ah, ok. I think it's the same as in April

    AB: we still don't have a ED of the Window Modes spec although we
    have an ED of the Media Query Extensions spec
    ([32]http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-wm/Overview.src.html).
    What's the priority for the WM spec and the short-term plan?

      [32] http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-wm/Overview.src.html).

    <tlr> ab: want to check

    Arve: it has some impact on the A+E spec
    ... if we can't finish WM spec soon, it will affect A+E spec
    ... we could remove window mode stuff from the A+E spec

    AB: do we have an Editor for the WM spec?

    RB: I can take it if no one else will

    AB: is anyone willing to step up and help Robin?

    MC: yes, I can help Robin

    AB: is one task moving stuff from MQE spec to the WM spec?

    MC: yes

    <arve> specifically: viewMode

    <arve> 5.13 The onmodechange Callback

    Arve: could remove viewMode from A+E

    <arve> 5.10 The width Attribute

    <arve> 5.11 The height Attribute

    AB: so are the opts: 1) increase prio of WM or 2) remove wm stuff
    from A+E?

    Arve: well, one question is if the group is willing to ref
    incomplete docs

    BS: wm-related reqs are very important
    ... if those parts are moved out of A+E, the target spec must also
    move forward

    AB: any other discussion points for A+E today?
    ... one question I have is what is BONDI going to do about A+E?
    ... given its lack of maturity

    DR: we will follow what WebApps does
    ... we offered help some time ago
    ... but it was put on the shelf
    ... understand P+C was the main target of activity

    [ can't hear BS ...]

    DR: we currently don't ref any version of A+E in BONDI
    ... but eventually we will align with it as it matures

    BS: in the next phase of BONDI, we will work on events
    ... and window modes is a key part of that
    ... must get alignment of A+E and WM specs

    AB: Bryan, if you can help with WM spec, that would be good

    BS: yes, I can create some input

    AB: anything else on WM spec?

    [ No ]

Widget URIs spec

    AB: several weeks ago Robin created an ED for the Widget URIs spec
    ([33]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/waf/widgets-uri/). This week,
    Jean-Claude Dufourd raised the frequently asked question "do we
    really need this scheme?"
    ([34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    610.html) and that naturally resulted in a lively discussion.
    ... Additionally, Adam Barth started a new thread
    ([35]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    624.html) regarding using a public key rather than UUID as the
    authority; that suggestion was "seconded" by Aaron Broodman
    ...
    ([36]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    636.html) of the Chrome team) and it also touched on the "origin"
    issue
    ([37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0
    629.html).
    ... Lastly, the latest ED contains a list of Issues.
    ... are there any specific issues we want to discuss today or should
    we continue discussions on the mail list?

      [33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/waf/widgets-uri/).
      [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0610.html)
      [35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0624.html)
      [36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0636.html)
      [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ 
2009AprJun/0629.html).

    Arve: not sure what we can achieve
    ... we just don't have consensus
    ... we will continue to fight the TAG on this

    RB: we need to get consensus first within the group

    Arve: perhaps our requirements and UCs are not strong enough

    RB: are you agreeing to gather UCs and Reqs?

    Arve: want to know if other memebers of the group think our ucs and
    reqs are strong enough

    RB: perhpas we need to simplify things for v1 and then defer some
    things for v2

    Arve: if have an origin it will be exposed outside of widget
    somewhere

    TR: need two strong reqs
    ... 1. do as little as possible and KISS
    ... 2. absolutize rel uris
    ... 3. need something on the RHS
    ... need to also think about adding authority section that
    identifies signer
    ... as suggested by Adam
    ... Not sure if that needs to be done for v1 vs. making sure that
    can be done for v2
    ... no relation for origin; solved by DAP WG
    ... Think we can define a simple model now and defer parts for v2

    RB: agreed

    Arve: if we use a simple model will we create interop problems for
    the implementors
    ... don't want something that is incompatible with the web

    TR: the model I proposed is fundamentally a sand-boxed iframe as far
    as the DOM is concerned
    ... behavior is reasonable well-defined in the HTML5 spec
    ... agree it could have some bugs
    ... we cannot reuse the web's origin model for remote access
    requests

    Arve: how do we enable the UC to embedd video within a widget?

    TR: use same model as XHR or any inline element

    Arve: video and audio will be subject to CORS
    ... will have required pre-flight requests

    TR: preflight not required for a same origin request
    ... must distinguish between decisions made in the UA and decisions
    made on the wire
    ... the UA will seek authorization via preflight

    Arve: we cannot make a decsion on the model until we have researched
    the consequences

    AB: so where does this leave us TR and Arve?

    TR: I hear Arve says there is a prob; not convinced we must solve it
    in v1

    Arve: if we want to work with the real web we can't defer this to v2

    TR: what is your proposal for solving the hard problem?

    Arve: I don't have a proposal now

    TR: when will you have a proposal?

    Arve: I can't commit

    RB: the table is open for proposal

    Arve: I have worries but no proposal

    RB: do you have specific examples of things that can go wrong?

    Arve: video with synthetic origin it could be impossible for content
    owner is being served to a widget
    ... also content owners may want to know where the content is used
    or embedded
    ... this discussion slops over with the WAR discussion

    TR: there is a set of proposals on the table
    ... I'm looking for a strawman
    ... I'm hearing there may be requirements

    Arve: I'm saying there may be issues
    ... and consequences

    TR: please put them on the table

    AB: Arve, can you take an action to document your concerns?

    Arve: I've raised the concerns here
    ... I don't have the answers
    ... I think the minutes reflect the concerns I have

    TR: given Opera has been working on CORS, perhaps you can
    investigate this

    Arve: I will ask Anne

    AB: I don't want to be in the same place next week

    <tlr> +1 to Robin

    TR: I think in the absence of any new proposals, we should specify
    the simplest proposal possible

    <darobin> +1 to TR :)

    RB: yes, I agree with TR and can edit the ED that way

    AB: any other comments on Widget URIs spec?

    [ No ]

AOB

    <drogersuk> As mentioned earlier on the call, the Approved Release
    of BONDI 1.0 can be downloaded from [38]http://bondi.omtp.org/.
    Please let me know if you have any comments or questions.

      [38] http://bondi.omtp.org/.

    DR: I will post a link to BONDI release in IRC

    AB: my recommendation is to send this information to the
    public-webapps mail list

    DR: yes, I will do that

    MC: does this reflect changes from the RC comments?

    DR: yes, it does

    AB: what level of testing has been done?

    DR: it is a spec; what part are you talking about?

    AB: e.g. the security policy framework
    ... is there a test suite for that?

    DR: we have compliance matrix and guidelines
    ... for v1.1 we will have a compliance suite

    AB: so this is a set of specifications without a test suite to show
    an implementation complies?

    DR: there is a compliance document and that may help answer your
    question

    AB: any other comments for David?

    [ No ]

    MC: which version of DigSig and P+C is BONDI referencing

    DR: for P+C we ref the 28-May-2009 version
    ... not sure about the DigSig spec

    RB: I think it is the LC version

    DR: yes, I think that's true

    AB: Meeting Adjourned

    [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WidgetsLondonJune2009

      [39] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WidgetsLondonJune2009

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: barstow discuss London f2f meeting time for Widgets
    DigSig [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-wam-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: berjon submit requirements for WAR spec to
    public-webapps [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-wam-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: sullivan submit Use Case input before the London f2f
    meeting [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-wam-minutes.html#action03]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 28 May 2009 16:00:47 GMT

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