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Minutes, DOM3 Events Telcon, 02 April 2008

From: Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:00:39 -0400
Message-ID: <47F3E5E7.3050404@w3.org>
To: public-webapi@w3.org

Hi, WebAPI fans-

The minutes for the 02 April 2008 DOM3 Events telcon can be found here:

  http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html

Or as text, below:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                        Web API WG Teleconference
                               02 Apr 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/2_Apr_2008

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Doug, Carmelo, smaug, ap, Travis

    Regrets
    Chair
           Doug

    Scribe
           Carmelo, Travis

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Key Event Model
          2. [6]keyCode and charCode
          3. [7]mobile-specific events
      * [8]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 02 April 2008

    <smaug> Zakim: ??P4 is smaug

    <shepazu>
    [9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/att-0047/
    keyCode-ie.htm

       [9] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/att-0047/keyCode-ie.htm

    <shepazu> scribe: Carmelo

    <shepazu> scribeNick: Carmelo

    <ap_> Alexey Proskuryakov, Apple

    <scribe> ACTION: Item to To Carmelo to cross tests keyup keydown and
    keypress as described on [recorded in
    [10]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action01]

    [11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/att-0047
    /keyCode-ie.htm

      [11] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/att-0047/keyCode-ie.htm

    <ap_> close enough :)

    Daug went over new introductions

Key Event Model

    <shepazu> Ollie sent in this:
    [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/att-00
    34/gecko-keyflow.svg

      [12] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/att-0034/gecko-keyflow.svg

    <shepazu>
    [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/0034.h
    tml

      [13] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/0034.html

    <ap_> correct, 10:40 PM :)

    <smaug> 9:40 pm here

    <ap_> that's an OK time for me, no problem!

    <shepazu> Alexey,s email:
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Mar/0220.h
    tml

      [14] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Mar/0220.html

    <Travis> (a little late, sorry)

    <Travis> I'll be calling in just a minute...

    Ap: Explained his model view

    Doug: Although browsers can not gurantee event orders's users can
    ... to Alexey, Do u thing that will be useful?

    Ollie: Quite a number of issues with that.

    <shepazu> Dead keys, etc.

    <smaug> it's very noisy right now

    <smaug> and echo too

    <ap_> yes, that's correct

    Doug to Alexey: When your first started you had a model similar to
    Firefox?

    <shepazu> and now they no longer provide an emulation layer

    <ap_> yes, I can describe it like that

    <ap_> that's both for matching IE, and for better supporting
    advanced text input on windows

    Alexey: We do not have that many problems with our model.

    <ap_> not to say that Firefox is significantly broken

    Alexey: A few minor issues with Windows

    <ap_> but there were some issues

    Alexey: Possible to define some kind of state diagram

    Travis: What about performance issues after removing the emulation
    layer?

    Alexey - None

    <shepazu> TL: did you drop the emulation layer for benchmarking
    reasons?

    <shepazu> AP: no, to better match IE...

    <shepazu> ...

    <ap_> and resolve some issues with advanced text input that we had

    <ap_> ok

    Doug: Will it be possible to write down (email) the issues?

    <ap_> in fact, we are trying to make OS X and Windows versions work
    the same

    <ap_> as much as possible

    <shepazu> scribeNick: Travis

    <shepazu> scribe: Travis

    It would be nice to standarize on one model or another...

    (TL: said that)

    Doug: It would mean that all other browers might have to change
    their behavior--at the risk of breaking pages.

    (someone:sorry) Whenever we change eventing, we break something. (It
    always happens)

    Whenever a webpage wants to handle IME, it's a mess

    Doug: With a single model, there will be pages that break, but I
    think that most pages don't use it 'cause that can't depend on it.
    ... If people are relying on a model, it's probably IE's model.

    In Safari, we saw significant breakage on many pages, but not
    significant enough to cause a huge problem. (many pages were
    special-casing for safari, but they were quite ready to adapt)

    Doug: Do you think that if we specified a set behavior, that those
    pages would change to match?

    Yes, big sites would adapt.

    Doug: that reduces the risk of us proposing a specific model.
    ... until we hear otherwise, we will continue to try to specify a
    model.
    ... If we do have a cleaner (or specified) model, we would adopt it.
    ... We have two options:
    ... 1) Figure out IE's behavior and specify that
    ... 2) Find a cleaner model, moderately compatible and specify that
    instead.
    ... What does MS think?
    ... Not worth it if W3C specifies a model and IE doesn't adopt.

    Travis: IE is committed to adopting the W3C eventing model. It'd be
    great if it matches IE's model :), but we're open to the greater
    good.

    Doug: Need an action item. Step 1: What are the issues that Apple
    ran into.
    ... Apple has done the most work to be cross-platform compatible.
    ... Ollie/Travis, can you describe the model in language useful for
    adoption to a spec?

    Ollie: Not sure I can provide a 'ready to spec' model, but I ready
    to try...

    <smaug> not Ollie

    (thanks)

    <smaug> but Alexey

    Doug: We have to consider IME, charcode/keycode (which is a
    nightmare)
    ... I gave Carmelo an action to...
    ... We will start email conversation about details of key event
    order wrt IME.

keyCode and charCode

    <shepazu>
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/KeyCode_and_charCode

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/KeyCode_and_charCode

    Doug: I don't think current implemenations are consistent between
    browsers, platforms, etc.

    <shepazu> [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Key_Identifiers

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Key_Identifiers

    Doug: Link discusses key identifiers (it's incomplete)
    ... specifies what to specify for key identifiers.
    ... We we likely have trouble specifying exactly how this is to be
    done.
    ... How do we all feel about identifying, but not specifying?

    I like it in terms of how it can help web developers.

    OP: Extremely useful for web developers.

    Doug: Useful for Web devs to have a model for them to use.

    OP: Right now they just have to target all browsers...

    Doug: CharCode/Keycode broken for internationalization issues...
    ... Charcode/keycode (what it is/informative index) will be very
    useful.
    ... Very useful for legacy browser support...
    ... For new web content, key identifiers are a much better model.

    Alexey: Not committing to be a guru on key identifiers...
    ... Thought it a bit strange to have Unicode named values, because
    they're not characters (the keys)

    Doug: Key identifier is more of an abstraction layer
    ... it's more of a key/value mapping.
    ... Example: a key with a 'Q' written on it, but then I change
    keyboard layout for it be 'a'.
    ... When I press the 'Q' key, the returned value is 'a'.
    ... This is the best result for internationization.
    ... For keycode, it's not the same. There's a certain number
    assigned to a physical key.
    ... It's not perfect, but for Intl. issue, this will be great for
    web app developers in the majority of cases.
    ... Personally, don't see it so useful for next gen. web apps to
    have char/keycode support (if they're developing next gen. web aps)
    ... Frameworks could abstract key/charcode mapping to key
    identifiers. If this doesn't exist it should (hint hint)
    ... Gave Carmelo action to make a chart for keycode/charcode across
    platform/browser.
    ... MS probably has some internal docs on this stuff...

    I can go looking for them. If they're not public domain, they
    probably should be.

    Doug: When is Mozilla going to build an OS? <grin>

    (oh, he was serious)

    Doug: unofficial action to Alexey: we'd love to see key events
    order/IME/keycode/charcode from Safari.

    Alexey: I can provide data from what cause us to change our
    approach...

    Doug: Travis, can you get some similar docs?

    Travis: I will try to find some documenation on it (or perhaps some
    tests).
    ... Agree, there needs to be some information I can dig up; I think
    this is important.

    Doug: I will send email for our expected deliverables.
    ... Will be on vacation/travelling for three weeks starting next
    month. Will see if Andrew could chair...
    ... Will try to keep us on task.

mobile-specific events

    Doug: Resolving keycode/charcode could keep us all busy.

    <shepazu> [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Mobile_Events

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Mobile_Events

    <shepazu> * longpress

    <shepazu> * IME

    <shepazu> * softkeys and other Key Identifiers

    <shepazu> * mobile keypad location

    <shepazu> * joystick

    Doug: Looking at longpress
    ... typically called 'longpress'. Some debate as to whether this
    should be it's own event or a property on an event.
    ... Could be like 'repeat'.

    <shepazu> [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Longpress

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Longpress

    Ollie: What's the rationale for having it be its own event?

    Doug: Anyone know if their platform supports long key press? If so,
    please provide details.

    <crickets>

    Doug: IE uses repeat. Does Moz. support repeat?
    ... is Moz. willing to implement?

    Travis: IE is willing to implement longkeypress

    Doug: How about Apple?

    Alexey: Currently have no support. Can't say about IPhone.

    Doug: IPhone doesn't have typical UI. Rationale for longpress on
    this phone is not very clear.
    ... Rationale on mobile is that keys are limited, and keys do
    different things if pressed for a long time.
    ... From IPhone perspective, (and more interesting) is how softkeys
    are implemented.

    Alexey: Don't know much about IPhone...

    Doug: Goal is probably to emulate MacOS.
    ... All feel free to review items listed above.

    <shepazu> [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Joystick

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Joystick

    Doug: mobile guys requested joystick/mobile keypad location
    (similar)
    ... Pull out your phone and observe 4-way/8-way toggle button.
    ... Originally, requested specific key identifiers (Joystick-up,
    etc.)

    <shepazu> KeyboardEvent.keyLocation

    Doug: However, after discussion, best idea was to use
    up/down/left/right keys, and use a keyboard event keylocation...

    <shepazu> DOM_KEY_LOCATION_MOBILE

    Alexey: Use same event interface for joystick/mousewheel?

    <ap_> not Alexey...

    Doug: Don't think a joystick on a mobile phone, is quite the same as
    what I was thinking...
    ... Probably using arrow keys and keyrepeat.
    ... But is probably device dependent.

    Travis: Joystick events may be out-of-scope...(in tranditional
    joystick sense)

    Doug: Suspects that arrow keys would work just fine on mobile...

    Travis: Are there diagonal arrow keys (for an 8-way direction
    keypad?)

    Doug: Short answer: yes.

    <shepazu>
    [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/keyset.html#KeySet-Set

      [20] http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/keyset.html#KeySet-Set

    Hm. I see "Left", etc.,

    Doug: I added them though... not in the above link yet.
    ... Some keyboards have diagonals.
    ... I will make the full list of keyboard identifiers.
    ... Alexey, what is the identifier for the Apple key?

    Alexey: It reports as the Meta key.

    Travis: Windows keyboards usually have a 'righ-click' or context
    menu key.

    (Is that supported?)

    <shepazu> [21]http://people.w3.org/rishida/utils/keyevents/

      [21] http://people.w3.org/rishida/utils/keyevents/

    Doug: Can't wait for key identifiers.

    Travis: returns the keycode 91 '['

    Doug: Don't think mobile implementers really needed a joystick
    event.
    ... I'm expecting some feedback on that.
    ... (Mobile guys could use arrow keys + key location=mobile key pad)
    ... I want to write a new spec for 'pen' events. (for tablets, etc.)
    ... Something like an 'alternate devices' spec that maps to events
    and defines new ones.
    ... I think having the up/down + key location is fine for mobile.
    ... Ollie, do you think this is OK?

    Ollie: yes.

    Doug: Reviewing action items...

    <shepazu> [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/track/

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/track/

    <shepazu> ACTION: Carmelo to cross tests keyup keydown and keypress
    [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-269 - Cross tests keyup keydown and
    keypress [on Carmelo Montanez - due 2008-04-09].

    <shepazu> ACTION: document Key Identifiers on wiki [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - document

    <shepazu> ACTION: schepers to document Key Identifiers on wiki
    [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-270 - Document Key Identifiers on wiki [on
    Doug Schepers - due 2008-04-09].

    Adios

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Carmelo to cross tests keyup keydown and keypress
    [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: document Key Identifiers on wiki [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Item to To Carmelo to cross tests keyup keydown and
    keypress as described on [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: schepers to document Key Identifiers on wiki [recorded
    in [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action04]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl version 1.133
     ([31]CVS log)
     $Date: 2008/04/02 19:58:01 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Allie/Alexey/
Found Scribe: Carmelo
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Found ScribeNick: Travis
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Inferring ScribeNick: Travis
Scribes: Carmelo, Travis
ScribeNicks: Carmelo, Travis
Default Present: Doug, Carmelo, smaug, ap, Travis
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Agenda: [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/2_Apr_2008
Found Date: 02 Apr 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.h
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People with action items: carmelo document item schepers

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/2_Apr_2008
      [34] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html

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