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Re: (really, this time) before/info breaks in modern browsers

From: Thomas Jewett <jewett@csulb.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:10:50 -0800
To: Shadi Abou-Zahra <shadi@w3.org>,Eric Eggert <mail@yatil.de>
Cc: public-wai-eo-badtf@w3.org
Message-ID: <web-15990064@romulus.csulb.edu>

I've found it to be very difficult to use the same
demonstrations for developers and decision makers.
BAD really is aimed for developers, as Eric has
pointed out. Perhaps there could be an "executive"
version for the bosses -- oh, sorry, don't mean to
keep suggesting more work :-)

Talk to you soon,

Tom

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:32:38 +0100
  Shadi Abou-Zahra <shadi@w3.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Eric, all,
> 
> Indeed, this message does not work well for developers. 
>However, during the previous work on the Demo several 
>people felt that it would be good for "decision makers" 
>to learn about cross-browser issues. It shows how pages 
>can appear to be broken for Web site users but without 
>needing to use screen-readers, magnifiers or any other 
>assistive technologies.
> 
> It seems that we should revisit this decision during 
>today's call.
> 
> Best,
>   Shadi
> 
> 
> Eric Eggert wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Shadi, Tom, all,
>> 
>>> Point taken that this aspect may be difficult to 
>>>maintain, although 
>>> this implementation has now survived three years of 
>>>browser 
>>> generations and it still "breaks" on most top browsers.
>> 
>> I wonder if one of the main lessons to teach is really 
>>that your page 
>> breaks if you use css not as intended. I guess those 
>>developer would 
>> have fixed the visuals of their presentation quite fast, 
>>but without 
>> addressing any of the accessibility issues.
>> 
>> And, the document leaves the impression that CSS is 
>>really hard, because 
>> it breaks when the usage would be so easy, and this 
>>doesnít happen with 
>> tables.
>> 
>> Additionally I am not sure if people who donít care 
>>about cross browser 
>> implementations are really our key audience. I guess 
>>they wonít have 
>> even heard of the w3c and wouldnít search there. Who 
>>will look at those 
>> demos will be a vaguely standards savvy developer who 
>>wants to push 
>> boundaries and find information which helps him to make 
>>his website 
>> perfect accessibile.
>> 
>> Regards, Eric
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Thomas Jewett wrote:
>>>> I'm thinking that browsers change so quickly, and
>>>> asynchronously, that trying to intentionally "break"
>>>> a page visually today is just going to be a pain to
>>>> maintain tomorrow. I agree with Eric that the out-
>>>> of-order table problem is still a significant one
>>>> on all too many pages -- worth illustrating.
>>>> Tom
>>>> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:47:42 +0100
>>>> Shadi Abou-Zahra <shadi@w3.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Eric, all,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is actually a feature rather than a bug! We wanted 
>>>>>to show that 
>>>>> bad markup may cause the content to break in different 
>>>>>browsers. 
>>>>> However, it seems that this is not clear enough -many 
>>>>>people did not 
>>>>> realize that we are doing this intentionally to show 
>>>>>something.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question is now: how can we better show that this is 
>>>>>a feature 
>>>>> of the Demo? Maybe the "in-between pages" may make it 
>>>>>more clear. 
>>>>> Also, the navigation proposed by Michael may have some 
>>>>>space for a 
>>>>> small comment. Let's discuss these and other ideas 
>>>>>tomorrow...
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>  Shadi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric Eggert wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all (again)!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The before articles page breaks horribly in modern 
>>>>>>browsers[1], we 
>>>>>> should correct that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/before/info
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Image: 
>>>>>>http://skitch.com/yatil/5exs/skitched-20081111-114346
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is because there are floats without any width are 
>>>>>>applied to 
>>>>>> the right side divs, which is not working according to 
>>>>>>the CSS2 spec.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Solution: Bring on the tables!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The issue (content is displayed in another order than in 
>>>>>>the 
>>>>>> markup) can be displayed with some tables, stacked upon 
>>>>>>each other. 
>>>>>> this wonít break in modern browsers, too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another solution would be to change the (inline) styles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards, Eric
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Tested in Firefox and Safari. IE6 seems to render 
>>>>>>the design as 
>>>>>> intended, although I havenít tested heavily as Iím on a 
>>>>>>mac.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/ |
>>>>>  WAI International Program Office Activity Lead   |
>>>>> W3C Evaluation & Repair Tools Working Group Chair |
>>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/ |
>>>  WAI International Program Office Activity Lead   |
>>> W3C Evaluation & Repair Tools Working Group Chair |
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/ |
>   WAI International Program Office Activity Lead   |
>  W3C Evaluation & Repair Tools Working Group Chair |
> 
Received on Wednesday, 12 November 2008 15:11:28 GMT

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