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Minutes of TT WG Meeting on May 10-12, 2004, Amsterdam (CWI)

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:20:18 +0200
To: <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <000701c48c41$08d3d600$0300000a@wistiti>

Minutes of TT WG Meeting on May 10-12, 2004, Amsterdam (CWI)

Attendees

  Glenn Adams (XFSI, Chair, Scribe) [GA]
  Geoff Freed (WGBH/NCAM) [GF]
  Sean Hayes (MSFT) [SH]
  Dave Kirby (BBC) [DK]
  Thierry Michel (W3C) [TM]

Regrets

  Mike Dolan (Invited Expert)
  Erik Hodge (REAL) [EH]
  Dave Singer (Apple) [DS]

Guests of Chair

  John Birch [JB] - Tuesday (05/11) only

Observers

  Dick Bultermann, CWI

************************************************************************
Agenda
************************************************************************

Day 1 (Monday, May 10, 2004)

  10:30 - 11:00 Agenda Planning
                Review and Acceptance of Prior Minutes
		Providing Input to XML Binary Characterization Working
Group

  11:00 - 12:30 Develop Default Transformations for LF => PF; PF => NF;

  12:30 - 13:30 Lunch

  13:30 - 15:00 Develop Distribution Format Exchange Profile (DFXP)

  15:30 - 16:00 Break

  16:00 - 17:30 Review style draft from [GF]

Day 2 (Tuesday, May 11, 2004)

  09:00 - 10:30 Review Temporal Fill Mode Requirements (R307) [JB]
                Develop Examples for R307 Style Parameters [JB]

  10:30 - 11:00 Break

  11:00 - 12:30 Review Visual Style Parameter Examples [GF]

  12:30 - 13:30 Lunch

  13:30 - 15:00 Descriptive markup vocabulary [DK]
                Standardized metadata vocabulary [TM/DK]

  15:30 - 16:00 Break

  16:00 - 17:30 Content selection (conditional content) mechanism (R207)
                Review XPath subset proposal [SH]

Day 3 (Wednesday, May 12, 2004)

  09:00 - 10:30 Review TTAF Draft Spec Schedule and Plan
		Example walk throughs

  10:30 - 11:00 Break
 
  11:00 - 12:30 Review timing and animation details

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Day 1 (Monday, May 10, 2004)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Agenda Planning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Accepted.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Review and Acceptance of Prior Minutes
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Accepted.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Review of TTAF for Interested Parties
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Review TTAF architecture, 3 layer model, AF vs DF, DFXP.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Providing Input to XML Binary Characterization Working Group
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[GA] Solicited group to volunteer to draft requirements to XML BCWG
based on earlier discussions in TTWG regarding streaming: random
stream access, repetitive broadcast of infoset fragments, minor
requirement would be information representative efficiency (i.e.,
compression).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Define Default Transformations
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Resolution: Drop <character> element from vocabulary; this is special
case of <inline> at PF layer. [Can't see rationale for separate
element.]

Resolution: Drop <block-container> and <inline-container>, absorbing
into <block> and <inline>, which may entail use of
reference-orientation on block/inline (or not, if we drop
reference-orientation).

inline styling possibilities

OPTION #1

<p tts:region="r1" tts:color="white" tts:font-family="tiresias"
   tts:font-size="24px">
The quick
<span tts:color="brown">brown</span>
fox jumps over the lazy dog.
</p>

OPTION #2

<p>
<style tts:region="r1"/>
<style tts:color="white"/>
<style tts:font-family="tiresias"/>
<style tts:font-size="24px"/>
The quick
<span>
<style tts:color="brown">
brown
</span>
fox jumps over the lazy dog.
</p>

Resolution: For inline styling, place qualified style attributes on
element being styled rather than using child <style> elements.

[SH] Should we have something like CSS media blocks?

[GA] We could use conditional content (switch) or add attributes on
styling and/or rule. No strong opinion (NSO).

[SH] NSO.

Resolution: use switch statement in styling context to achieve
similar effects as with CSS @media rule.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Day 2 (Friday, May 11, 2004)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[GF] Wants to add to agenda discussion of basic set of properties to
allow implementers to do tests and allow simple content development.

Candidate Simple Style and Timing Properties:

Content:

  flows		- container for list of flows; can contain only one flow
		  in DFXP subset
  flow		- container for list of blocks; can contain only block*
  block		- block content; can contain chars, inline, br
  inline	- inline content; can contain chars, inline, br
  br		- explicit line break; empty

Style:

  font-family	- apply to region, blocks in region, inlines in block
  font-size	- apply to region, blocks in region, inlines in block
  font-style	- apply to region, blocks in region, inlines in block
  font-weight	- apply to region, blocks in region, inlines in block
  text-align	- apply to region and blocks in region
  text-outline	- apply to region, blocks in region, inlines in block
  color		- apply to region, blocks in region, inlines in block
  origin	- apply to region and blocks in region
  extent	- apply to region and blocks in region
  background-color - apply to region, blocks in region, inlines in block
  wrapping-option - apply to region and blocks in region
  display-align	- apply to region
  writing-mode	- apply to region

  [requires units/metrics enumeration and/or defaulting, e.g.,
   cells...]

Timing:

  begin			- apply to blocks and inlines
  dur			- apply to blocks and inlines
  end			- apply to blocks and inlines

Resolution: At PF layer, in general case, allow multiple flow elts in
flows, and allow inline timing on flow. Both flows and flow have
default time container semantics of <par>.

Resolution: At PF layer, time action is always "display", such that
if a content element is inactive (temporally), then it is considered
to have tts:display="none"; but, if active, it is considered to have
tts:display="auto".

Resolution: At PF layer, specify set/animate elts as children of
content elt being animated, with <par> time container semantics on
elt being animated.

Resolution: Adopt organization expressed in example 20040511-ex1.xml
as formulation for DFXP using simple properties shown above.

<block dur="20s">
  My Dog Ate					<!--  0 - 20 -->
  <inline begin="10s">The Cat In The Hat</inline><!-- 10 - 20 -->
  With The Bone					<!--  0 - 20 -->
</block>

<block dur="20s">
  <inline begin="0s">My Dog Ate</inline>	<!--  0 - 20 -->
  <inline begin="10s">The Cat In The Hat</inline><!-- 10 - 20 -->
  <inline begin="15s">With The Bone</inline>	<!-- 15 - 20 -->
</block>

[DB] Suggests emphasizing in spec that text has no implied duration.

[SH] Would like to see separate temporal model document.

[DB] word wrap?

[DK] we need ability to specify hard wrap and a interpreter is free
to perform auto wrap.

[GA] may want to have no-wrap style whereby author says interpret
will not perform auto wrap.

Question: how to interpret NLF, PARA SEP, and LINE SEP? more general
issue is how to interpret UNICODE controls of various types in DFXP?

Resolution: support wrap-option in DFXP, use <br> for explicit line
breaks. Call out clipping in case wrap-option is no-wrap and line
extends outside of region.

*** lunch ***

[GA] Have we forgotten text outline option? Define modeled on
text-shadow, e.g.,

text-outline :
  none |
  <color> || (normal|light|heavy|(<length> <length>?) |
  inherit

[GF] Agree to include in simple styles for DFXP.

[SH] Ensure that what we do is harmonized with CSS3 Fonts, e.g.,
font-effect, font-smooth, ...

[SH] Does use of text-shadow effects to achieve text-outline give one
sufficient control over result, e.g., width?

Action: [SH] To check with CSS WG on best way to express text outline
property.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Temporal Fill Mode
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[JB] Fill mode direction may be handled by display-align property.

Fil\Rem	CHAR WORD SPAN LINE REGN
CHAR      x    x    x    x    x
WORD           x    x    x    x
SPAN                x    x    x
LINE                     x    x
REGN                          x

[JB] Permit remove faster than fill; for remove of smaller units than
fill, implies presentation semantics such that multiple remove units
are simultaneously removed to make room for fill.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Day 3 (Friday, May 12, 2004)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Resolution: Inline timing should support mechanism to designate content
elements with distinct time containers, e.g., par, seq, excl. See
timeContainer attribute in SMIL 2.0 Integration feature set.

[GA] Should explore XHTML2 src attribute mechanism as possible means to
reference external content.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Draft specification schedule.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[TM] Notes that we are late according to our charter. Mentions that
there is a requirement for a WD every 3 months.

[GA] Believes this applies only when group has document in REC track
process, and we don't yet have one there. The REQ document doesn't
count since it is not REC track.

[GF] Will try to have DFXP draft in 2 weeks. Should be able to review
in June. Suggests targeting September for 1st public draft shortly
after meeting.

[SH] Thinks we should do 1st draft after June meeting.

[GA] Commits to having update to spec before June meeting, and will
depend upon input from members.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Descriptive markup and metadata.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Resolution: (Typically) every element type should permit a metadata
child in which are placed (optionally) title, desc, and other
arbitrary metadata.

Action: [GA] Update schema.

Action: [TM] Update metadata module text.

Action: [SH] Provide draft on or before June meeting to discuss aural
parameters and also related descripive vocabulary, such as shift ...

Tentative Resolution: Defer decision on shift role until [SH]
provides input.

[DB] Questions need to standardize specific role tokens.

[SH] Suggests putting these in an informative annex, possibly with
a registration mechanism for groups to define collections of agreed
roles.

[DK] Minimum requirement is to attribute utterance/content.

[GA] agent attribute will serve this purpose. Let's assume we support
agent and role attrs, but do not define values. Second question: can
or should we define any standardized values?

Consensus: Define standard agent and role attrs that can appear on
some (though perhaps not all) content elements (like p, span). The
agent attr should be typed as IDREFS. The role attr should be typed as
NMTOKENS (each should be possible to be either QName or not).

Action: [GF]/[DK] To collaborate in order to propose (or not) a set of
role values to be standardized, or, if not, then listed in informative
annex.

Tenative Resolution: To incorporate list worked out by [DK] into
informative annex in case that no standardization is required or
agreed.

[TM] What about standardized MD items?

[GA] Wants MD adhoc to make recommendation. Candidates for
standardization include:

* title
* description (desc)
* possible - agent related

[GA] Wants answer to question: whether to call this elt "meta" or
"metadata"?

[SH] Call it "meta" unless someone has strong opinion.

Resolution: Use "meta" as name of metadata container element.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Content selection.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Action: [*] Please review [1] for consideration as possible mechanism
for performing conditional selection of content, style, timing.

[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/di/Group/di-selection/

[GA] Assumption: we would reuse in TT namespace as opposed to using
DI namespace.

Action: [GA] Incorporate strawman use into schema for June revision of
TT-AF spec.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Style examples.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[GF] Reviews examples.

[DB] The canteen is open.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
START SUMMARY
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*** RESOLUTIONS ***

Resolution: Drop <character> element from vocabulary; this is special
case of <inline> at PF layer. [Can't see rationale for separate
element.]

Resolution: Drop <block-container> and <inline-container>, absorbing
into <block> and <inline>, which may entail use of
reference-orientation on block/inline (or not, if we drop
reference-orientation).

Resolution: For inline styling, place qualified style attributes on
element being styled rather than using child <style> elements.

Resolution: use switch statement in styling context to achieve
similar effects as with CSS @media rule.

Resolution: At PF layer, in general case, allow multiple flow elts in
flows, and allow inline timing on flow. Both flows and flow have
default time container semantics of <par>.

Resolution: At PF layer, time action is always "display", such that
if a content element is inactive (temporally), then it is considered
to have tts:display="none"; but, if active, it is considered to have
tts:display="auto".

Resolution: At PF layer, specify set/animate elts as children of
content elt being animated, with <par> time container semantics on
elt being animated.

Resolution: Adopt organization expressed in example 20040511-ex1.xml
as formulation for DFXP using simple properties shown above.

Resolution: support wrap-option in DFXP, use <br> for explicit line
breaks. Call out clipping in case wrap-option is no-wrap and line
extends outside of region.

Resolution: Inline timing should support mechanism to designate content
elements with distinct time containers, e.g., par, seq, excl. See
timeContainer attribute in SMIL 2.0 Integration feature set.

Resolution: (Typically) every element type should permit a metadata
child in which are placed (optionally) title, desc, and other
arbitrary metadata.

Tentative Resolution: Defer decision on shift role until [SH]
provides input.

Tenative Resolution: To incorporate list worked out by [DK] into
informative annex in case that no standardization is required or
agreed.

Resolution: Use "meta" as name of metadata container element.

*** OPEN ACTION ITEMS ***

Action: [SH] Will investigate use of media queries in this context and
report back.

Action: [DS with help of Paul Nelson and Peter Lofting] Write RFC to
register appropriate opentype/truetype font types as MIME media types,
suggest model of "application/font-<font-type-name>", e.g.,
"application/font-truetype".

Action: [GA] Make proposal regarding use of Xlink vocabulary or
"src" attribute.

Action: [GA] Draft new requirement on "Integrability"
in general terms that should not impact testing or implementation
requirements.

Action: [GA] incorporate agreed changes into TT-AF-1-0-REQ in
preparation for publishing final W3C Note.

Action: [SH] will review and propose subset of aural parameters
(see R305).

Action: [GA] Add figure showing logical structure anticipated
by requirements.

Action: [GA] Add note to R217 and R219 that shows use of data: URI
scheme.

Action: [SH] to propose subset with extensions for use in CS
Profile.

Action: [GF] investigate syntax for regions vis-a-vis style.

Action: [DK] To write up short paragraph on uses of
role tokens. Suggest removing or adding as he
progresses.

Action: [TM] to propose and define standard MD attributes. N.B.
Awaiting further discussion by WG.

Action: [DK/MD/TM] Formulate recommendation on specific and general
MD features.

Action: [GA] Need to start planning for September meeting in Japan!

Action: [SH] to draft standard ready text for subset of xquery.

Action: [DS] Based on email of 01/14, integrate with fillBehavior as
described in example.

Action: [*] For module owners, start developing test suite documents
that have feature tests in all necesary context, and no superfluous
context. Follow-on for primary spec editor will be to incorporate
fragments from these cases, but that will be subsequent to publishing
first internal draft of integrated spec.

Action: [SH] To check with CSS WG on best way to express text outline
property.

Action: [GA] Update schema.

Action: [TM] Update metadata module text.

Action: [SH] Provide draft on or before June meeting to discuss aural
parameters and also related descripive vocabulary, such as shift ...

Action: [GF]/[DK] To collaborate in order to propose (or not) a set of
role values to be standardized, or, if not, then listed in informative
annex.

Action: [*] Please review [1] for consideration as possible mechanism
for performing conditional selection of content, style, timing.

[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/di/Group/di-selection/

Action: [GA] Incorporate strawman use into schema for June revision of
TT-AF spec.

*** OPEN ISSUES ***

Issue: Whether to use XLink vocabulary, e.g., as used consistently by
SVG, or use "src" attribute as apparently will be done in XHTML2?

Issue: Probably want to permit in logical content mode the selection
of content based on generic XML features of non-TT namespace
descriptive markup, e.g., for applying style and timing semantics, in
which case an appropriate TT container element shall be implied based
on nearest ancestor TT namespace element.

Issue: Need to think about cascading semantics; how to express, how to
apply, etc. Possibly use CSS semantics here as well.

Issue (2004-03-05): Whether to allow block as immediate child of
inline? N.B. XSL-FO does allow this. [GA] showed example of renmoji
(horizontal block in vertical Japanese lines).

Issue (2004-05-12): how to interpret NLF, PARA SEP, and LINE SEP? more
general
issue is how to interpret UNICODE controls of various types in DFXP?

*** URIs ***

[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/di/Group/di-selection/

*** NEXT MEETING DATES ***

* Jun 22-24 in Mt. View, CA or Cupertino (either MSFT or Apple)
* Sep 14-16 in Amsterdam (CWI)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
END SUMMARY
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thierry MICHEL
W3C/ERCIM
Received on Friday, 27 August 2004 14:21:00 GMT

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