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minutes, 26 April 2012 SVG WG telcon

From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 08:10:37 +1000
Message-ID: <4F99C7DD.30503@mcc.id.au>
To: SVG public list <www-svg@w3.org>
Minutes from today's SVG WG telcon:

   http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html



    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

26 Apr 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0019.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Erik, Dirk, Nikos, Cameron, Tav, Chris, Jen

    Regrets
           Doug, Rik

    Chair
           ed

    Scribe
           Cameron

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]progress update for SVG2
          2. [6]canvas in SVG
          3. [7]replacing SVGException with new Web IDL exceptions
          4. [8]Hamburg F2F agenda
          5. [9]masks and filters being children of what they apply
             to
          6. [10]July F2F dates
          7. [11]transforms on svg:svg elements
          8. [12]text decorations and rotated glyphs
          9. [13]mail from EXI regarding path syntax
      * [14]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 26 April 2012

    <scribe> Scribe: Cameron

    <scribe> ScribeNick: heycam

progress update for SVG2

    <ed>
    [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Co
    mmitments

      [15] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments

    ED: there have been a couple of placeholders added

    … I was wondering about how to deal with proposals

    … everything in the table that needs a proposal, is it fine to
    put something in the spec, or should we go through the mailing
    list first?

    CM: could just add it to the spec

    … bring it up on the list before, if you think it will be
    controversial

    DS: I couldn't find the canvas topic on the list of
    requirements

    <krit> Tav:
    [16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Co
    mmitments

      [16] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments

    TB: I've taken where people have made committments, where it's
    easy to do so, I've added a note/annotation in the spec

    … I've listed the requirement, resolution, when the resolution
    was made, why, and who is committed to doing it

    … there are some things I don't know where they're supposed to
    go

    ED: the next step is just to start editing those sections

canvas in SVG

    <ed>
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Jul/0081.ht
    ml

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Jul/0081.html

    DS: I think it's necessary that we support this

    … this will be an SVG canvas element and not an HTML one

    TB: would it work just like any other image?

    DS: I don't think there's anything special to handle

    … in HTML, it has width/height attributes and properties

    … referencing the HTML spec might be a tricky part

    CM: alex's mail suggests other features for canvas that aren't
    in the HTML one, automatically calling a function to repaint
    for example

    DS: I am happy to take on that requirement if nobody else wants
    to

    <ChrisL> +1

    RESOLUTION: SVG2 will have a canvas element, the exact details
    TBD.

    <ChrisL> good to resolve this, thought we already did but I
    don't have a link

    <scribe> ACTION: Dirk to add an entry to the requirements and
    commitments page for canvas in SVG [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3263 - Add an entry to the
    requirements and commitments page for canvas in SVG [on Dirk
    Schulze - due 2012-05-03].

replacing SVGException with new Web IDL exceptions

    CL: no objections, sounds like a good thing to do

    ED: I think that's fine

    CM: I think it's unlikely people are relying on the exact
    details of SVGException

    RESOLUTION: SVG2 will use Web IDL style exceptions in place of
    SVGException

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to make SVG2 use Web IDL exceptions
    instead of SVGException [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3264 - Make SVG2 use Web IDL
    exceptions instead of SVGException [on Cameron McCormack - due
    2012-05-03].

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to rewrite SVG2's IDL to use Web IDL
    [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3265 - Rewrite SVG2's IDL to use Web
    IDL [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-05-03].

Hamburg F2F agenda

    <ed>
    [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Hamburg_2012/age
    nda_proposals

      [21] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Hamburg_2012/agenda_proposals

    ED: a reminder to put agenda proposals on the page

    CL: we decided to meet in zurich already I think

    CM: yes

masks and filters being children of what they apply to

    [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJu
    n/0020.html

      [22] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0020.html

    ED: Brian is asking to add this to the requirements list

    CM: is the idea to have <mask>, <filter>, etc. to apply to
    their parents?

    CL: it's not clear

    … in existing SVG, how would you tell the difference between a
    mask masking its parent, a <g> or an <svg>, and this new way?

    CM: I think automatically having them apply to their parent
    would break content

    CL: we would need a switch to turn that behaviour on

    … does mask point to something?

    ED: the mask property points to the mask element

    … I don't think the mask element points to anything

    CL: can we use the absence of this url() value to indicate this
    new behaviour?

    NA: I think the pointer is around the way

    ED: one way is to introduce a keyword the mask property,
    mask="child" for example

    … we already have url() or none

    <ChrisL> ok so the filter property value is FuncIRI | none |
    parent

    DS: we should take into account that an FX spec will want to
    specify the mask property

    CL: all properties can be expressed as presentation attributes

    … are you worried about the webkit mask property?

    DS: yes

    CL: there, they want to point to an image

    … they can still use url() to point to a raster image, we'd
    just need to relax the wording of the property definition to
    say it can point to images as well as a mask element

    [discussion of whether to allow "child" as a value for the
    property, vs just the presentation attribute, vs on the mask
    element itself]

    CM: so you would rather an attribute on the <mask> element that
    says "apply to parent"

    <ChrisL> yes

    ED: it might be more intuitive that way

    <ChrisL> like animation elements do

    CL: current implementations would ignore any new <mask
    applytoparent> elements

    ED: one advantage of having it on the property, the element
    that uses the mask you know directly there that it is going to
    be masked

    … otherwise you need to traverse the subtree and find the mask
    element

    CM: same for animation though

    DS: clip path, gradient, patterns

    … would the pattern apply to fill or stroke?

    CL: same question for gradients

    DS: what about two mask elements?

    <ChrisL> mask and clip are unambiguous when applying to the
    parent. gradient and pattern could apply to the stroke or the
    fill ...

    CM: I wonder if it's more useful for clip path, mask, filters
    than gradients/patterns

    <ChrisL> who proposed the requirement?

    Brian Birtles

    <ChrisL> ACTION: brian to propose in detail how mask and clip
    work on parents [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3266 - Propose in detail how mask and
    clip work on parents [on Brian Birtles - due 2012-05-03].

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to follow up with Brian about
    ACTION-3266 [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3267 - Follow up with Brian about
    ACTION-3266 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-05-03].

July F2F dates

    <ed>
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJu
    n/0023.html

      [25] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0023.html

    CM: if we could move it to the start of the week, that would be
    convenient to have at the start of the week

    krit, [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings

      [26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings

    CL: we need to find out if the Seattle site and the Paris site
    can do it

    … I also proposed in the email that the Seattle side start a
    couple of hours earlier, 7am-3pm say, that would make it
    4pm-midnight in France

    <krit> Seattle F2F 23 to 25 of July

    <ChrisL> Ok so its Mon 23 to Weds 25 July

transforms on svg:svg elements

    DS: we already have viewBox on <svg:svg>, when does transform
    apply?

    … I propose, transform then viewBox then preserveAspectRatio
    then width/height/etc.

    CM: so like wrapping the <svg> element with a <g transform>

    … I think that makes sense

    <krit> <g transform=""><svg></svg><g> == <svg transform ...>

    ED: is this only for nested elements?

    DS: also for top level

    CL: I think it's important for the behaviour of referencing
    this top level element, and just rendering it, to be the same

    … so it should also apply to the top level

    … people who are doing mapping, where you want to zoom in and
    move around, it's easier to have a transform and modify it on
    the root

    DS: and keep the viewBox

    CM: where does the currentTranslate, currentScale fit in?

    ED: I think they would come in first

    CL: we did define this precisely in TIny 1.2

    … we decided to copy that across to SVG2

    <ed>
    [27]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/svgudom.html#svg__SVGSVGElem
    ent

      [27] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/svgudom.html#svg__SVGSVGElement

    DS: would we want to integrate the currentTranslate,
    currentScale into the transform?

    <ChrisL> no, I was thinking more of
    [28]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/coords.html#transform-usersp
    ace

      [28] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/coords.html#transform-userspace

    <ed>
    [29]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#__svg__SVGSVGElement
    __currentScale

      [29] 
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#__svg__SVGSVGElement__currentScale

    ED: the UA translations/scales might be modified by browser
    chrome, menu items

    … I think it makes sense to keep separate

    CM: I'm happy to keep them separate

    DS: does this also mean we make SVGSVGElement be
    SVGTransformable?

    CL: yes I think we would

    <scribe> ACTION: Dirk to investigate currentTranslate etc. and
    how they fit with <svg:svg transform=""> [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3268 - Investigate currentTranslate
    etc. and how they fit with <svg:svg transform=""> [on Dirk
    Schulze - due 2012-05-03].

text decorations and rotated glyphs

    [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Mar/0056.ht
    ml

      [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Mar/0056.html

    CM: do text decorations rotate along with rotated glyphs?

    CL: what the content author expects is "it depends"

    … if they're rotating a few glyphs 10 degrees left and right,
    they probably want the underline to be continuous underneath

    … if they're doing shifts and things, they probably want the
    decoration to shift with the glyphs

    … that argues to me to have both behaviours, and a way to
    switch between them

    CL: sometimes the underline is just drawn as a stroke, but
    sometimes it's a feature of the font

    … also CSS has some odd rules for colouring of decorations

    CM: I hope we can have the same behaviour as CSS for decoration
    colours

    CL: I think we made a good effort to align with CSS

    ED: CSS doesn't have paints for fill/stroke

    <ChrisL> css color property is effectively text-fill-color

    CL: would this be a separate property or a new value for
    text-decoration?

    CM: I think a separate property would be better

    <ChrisL> text-decoration-transform : track | ignore

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to propose a property for making text
    decorations rotate or not [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3269 - Propose a property for making
    text decorations rotate or not [on Cameron McCormack - due
    2012-05-03].

mail from EXI regarding path syntax

    <ed>
    [33]http://www.w3.org/mid/23204FACB677D84EBD57175AB7B5A71C01176
    D05F061@FMSAMAIL.fmsa.local

      [33] 
http://www.w3.org/mid/23204FACB677D84EBD57175AB7B5A71C01176D05F061@FMSAMAIL.fmsa.local

    CL: I thought we had decided anyway to have an element syntax
    for paths

    … and an API that works on both syntaxes

    … an EXI pre-processor could also use the API to decompose the
    path out into the verbose notation

    <ed>
    [34]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Ma
    iling_List_Feedback#Introduce_element-based_path_syntax

      [34] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Introduce_element-based_path_syntax

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to the mail from EXI WG on the current
    status of the verbose path notation [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action08]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3270 - The mail from EXI WG on the
    current status of the verbose path notation [on Chris Lilley -
    due 2012-05-03].

    <scribe> Chair: Erik

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: brian to propose in detail how mask and clip work
    on parents [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to follow up with Brian about ACTION-3266
    [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to make SVG2 use Web IDL exceptions
    instead of SVGException [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to propose a property for making text
    decorations rotate or not [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to rewrite SVG2's IDL to use Web IDL
    [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to the mail from EXI WG on the current
    status of the verbose path notation [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: Dirk to add an entry to the requirements and
    commitments page for canvas in SVG [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Dirk to investigate currentTranslate etc. and how
    they fit with <svg:svg transform=""> [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-svg-minutes.html#action06]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 26 April 2012 22:11:12 GMT

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