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Minutes, 26 Feb 2009 SVG telcon

From: Chris Lilley <chris@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:05:15 +0100
Message-ID: <1641624140.20090226220515@w3.org>
To: public-svg-wg@w3.org
Hello public-svg-wg,

 Minutes are at
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html

and below as text for tracker.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: anthony draft use cases and requirements for z-index and compare and contrast with transforms and critically discuss with reference to a neo-marxist dialictic [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: anthony to check equations for blending and add informative ref to ISO 32000-1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: doug to reply to Dean on 3d transforms [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]



                   SVG Working Group Teleconference

26 Feb 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0172.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Shepazu, heycam, ed__, ChrisL, [IPcaller], anthony, erik, a,
          dalek

   Regrets
   Chair
          erik

   Scribe
          chris

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Referencing ISO-32000-1 for blending Compositing
            module]
         2. [6]transforms review
         3. [7]Transitions and Animations
         4. [8]z-index use cases and requirements
         5. [9]tpac 2009
         6. [10]back to transforms
         7. [11]odf and svg
     * [12]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________



   <trackbot> Date: 26 February 2009

   <scribe> scribe: chris

   <scribe> scribenick: chrisl

Referencing ISO-32000-1 for blending [Compositing module]

   cl: is this a normative or informative reference, and will the
   equations be in our spec of just referenced?

   cmc: costs money?

   cl: of course

   ds: prefer to have the equations in our spec, can reference the ISO
   as well
   ... and better to be in a RF spec

   cl: normative or informative?

   ds: informative. Useful to know the connection between them

   cl: agree

   cmc: if its nortmative then you still should buy it in case

   ed: good to have all the equations in our spec

   resolved: equations for compositing will be in the svg spec, with an
   informative reference to ISO 3200-1

   <scribe> ACTION: anthony to check equations for blending and add
   informative ref to ISO 32000-1 [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2480 - Check equations for blending and
   add informative ref to ISO 32000-1 [on Anthony Grasso - due
   2009-03-05].

   ag: will do, not checked the equations yet
   ... will check the equations again, needs some testing to verify

transforms review

   <anthony>
   [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review

     [14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review

   [15]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/Ove
   rview.html?rev=1.3&content-type=text/html:%20charset=iso-8859-1

     [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/Overview.html?rev=1.3&content-type=text/html:%20charset=iso-8859-1

   cl: (explains stacking context)

   ds: liked your email comments, chris... they seem more likely to be
   fruitful

   before "Currently, Firefox and Safari throw away" say "Since
   backward compatibility is important we tested current browwsers and
   currently ...."

   should probably motivate why openvg is important

   existing implementations get acceleration from openvg, etc

   cl: the overasll review document is good, I just had some specific
   comments

   ds: its important that we support css in this useful work

   ed: sounds good

   ag: been editing live, these are ready to go

   cmc: i have a few detailed comments in email
   ... want clarification on matrix sizes and math

   ag: need to commit the new draft of svg transforms

   cl: the css spec needs some references to explain transforms and
   matrices for those unaware

   ed: we have a minuted resolution to publish

   ds: plh said recently that tight integration and strong coordination
   is important

   ag: did we respond to dean's email?

   cmc: send a reply to dean thanking him, and point to this review?

   <scribe> ACTION: doug to reply to Dean on 3d transforms [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2481 - Reply to Dean on 3d transforms [on
   Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-05].

   referencing
   [17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review

     [17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review

   cmc: i still have some comments yet to make

   ds: ok lets talks offline and I will send it over the weekend

   cl: css wg will likely be discussing these documents next week in
   japan

Transitions and Animations

   cmc: so we are going to send outr individual non-svgf related stuff
   directly, and coordinate on a wg response for the svg specific
   aspects

   ds: think individual responses is more timely and allows more
   discussion
   ... send responses to www-style with cc to www-svg

   ed: i have a bunch of feedback on that, will send it next week

z-index use cases and requirements

   issue-2226?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-2226 -- Investigate the use cases and requirements
   for z-index -- RAISED

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2226

     [18] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2226

   ed: good to have an action on this.
   ... does our spec deal with z-index?

   ag: we have discussed it, in Sydney

   [19]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/15-svg-minutes.html#item05

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2009/02/15-svg-minutes.html#item05

   pointer to stacking context
   [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html

     [20] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html

   ed: we could define z-index the same way so that it also applies to
   svg as well as being compatible with html

   'z-index'

   Value: auto | <integer> | inherit

   Initial: auto

   Applies to: positioned elements

   Inherited: no

   Percentages: N/A

   Media: visual

   Computed value: as specified

   ag: instead of z-index, could also use the transform-style property,
   to switch on z-ordering for a group of objects

   cl: interesting option

   ag: yes as it could apply only to container elements
   ... similar to layered groups
   ... as soon as document order is lost, impact on streaming and
   rendering speed so being able to isolate the effects is beneficial

   ds: would that need a whole shadow tree?
   ... if we have layered groups, it could be implemented by making a
   shadow tree that replaces the docuent order subtree. but that could
   be expensive on memory

   cl: impact on filter effects / render background, and on event
   bubbling .....

   cmc: would complicate document updates as well

   ds: maybe contact andrew and ask about layeredg

   ed: think you just need a different tree traversal order, not a
   whole copy of the subtree

   ds: impact of that on keyboard navigation / docuent order?
   ... would this affect hierarchy eg with a use element that points
   outside the z-ordered group
   ... example of two circles bing twiddled on z-order, then two use
   elements that point to them

   ag: i would say no, it gets really complex. import the transform not
   the layered group it could get really hairy

   ds: right, using them outside the layering context gets document
   order not this new rendering order

   ag: trying to ease implementor burden while keepin git simple and
   powerful for authors

   <shepazu> <layer><circle id="c1" .../><circle id="c2"
   .../></layer><use xlink:href="#c1" .../><use xlink:href="#c2" .../>

   ag: a reference to that ISO spec (for full title, for the
   references)
   [21]http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_deta
   il.htm?csnumber=51502

     [21] http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=51502

   ds: need to name this carefully, eg inkscape already has laters that
   are really more like groups

   costs CHF 380,00

   ed: so its good to gather use cases and requirements for z-index

   ag: does this impact the transforms UC&R?

   ed: should still examine the use case for it

   cl: good in the transforms UC&R to discuss how this is similar to,
   and different from, css 2.1 z-index

   <scribe> ACTION: anthony draft use cases and requirements for
   z-index and compare and contrast with transforms and critically
   discuss with reference to a neo-marxist dialictic [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2482 - Draft use cases and requirements
   for z-index and compare and contrast with transforms and critically
   discuss with reference to a neo-marxist dialictic [on Anthony Grasso
   - due 2009-03-05].

tpac 2009

   <ed___>
   [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/017
   4.html

     [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0174.html

   cl: (explains tpac question - group attendance, timing, cost and
   location)

   ds: an advantage of the proposed location is silicon valley so more
   particiation from browser vendors like mozilla, applle etc

   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2009JanMar/0059

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2009JanMar/0059

   ds: its one month after svg open in the same area

   cl: prefer the cost-effective location

   ds: perhaps shift svg open?

   cl: not clear that the tpac will happen. depends on how many groups
   confirm
   ... plh suggested a mini-tpac for browser-based technologies like
   html, css, svg, webapps and so forth

   ed: mini-tech plenary sounds good

   ds: downside is that we miss being able to meet with other groups

   [25]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/TPAC2009/results

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/TPAC2009/results

   ds: 3d Transforms have an impact on level of detail

   ag: we need near and far clipping really
   ... this is 3d transforms applied toa 2d object then flattened to
   give a 2d result

back to transforms

   oops, should have changed topic sorrry

odf and svg

   ds: it would be a win if odf were to use svg natively. currently
   they don't. its being discussed in svg ig
   ... who is interested?

   ed: yes, sure

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: anthony draft use cases and requirements for z-index
   and compare and contrast with transforms and critically discuss with
   reference to a neo-marxist dialictic [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: anthony to check equations for blending and add
   informative ref to ISO 32000-1 [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: doug to reply to Dean on 3d transforms [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]


-- 
 Chris Lilley                    mailto:chris@w3.org
 Technical Director, Interaction Domain
 W3C Graphics Activity Lead
 Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG
Received on Thursday, 26 February 2009 21:06:02 GMT

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