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Minutes Jan 5, 2009 telcon

From: Erik Dahlström <ed@opera.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:17:09 +0100
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.unayqsz3gqiacl@gnorps.linkoping.osa>


or text format:


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                   SVG Working Group Teleconference

05 Jan 2009


      [2] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090105045954.GB9067@arc.mcc.id.au

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/05-svg-irc


          Shepazu, ed__, jwatt, heycam, Doug_Schepers




     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]ProgressEvents draft
         2. [6]ISSUE-2194
         3. [7]SVG 1.1 errata
         4. [8]clipping and pointer-events
         5. [9]testsuite infrastructure
         6. [10]brief SVG in HTML
         7. [11]other open issues and actions
     * [12]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2009

   <scribe> scribe: erik

   <scribe> scribeNick: ed__

ProgressEvents draft

   <heycam> [13]http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan

     [13] http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan

   CMC: charles send us a reminder for us to review it

   DS: we did have suggestions for that spec, right?

   ED: yes, and those have been incorporated AFAIK

   DS: shall we do a review of it?

   CMC: sounds like a good idea to give it a quick readthrough

   DS: noting that our changes were taken in and so on
   ... who wants to do the review?

   <scribe> ACTION: ed to review the progressevents spec
   ([14]http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan) and
   send comments to public-svg-wg [recorded in

     [14] http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan)

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2388 - Review the progressevents spec
   ([16]http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan) and
   send comments to public-svg-wg [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-01-12].

     [16] http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan)

   <scribe> ACTION: DS to review the progressevents spec
   ([17]http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan) and
   send comments to public-svg-wg [recorded in

     [17] http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan)

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2389 - Review the progressevents spec
   ([19]http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan) and
   send comments to public-svg-wg [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-01-12].

     [19] http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan)



   <trackbot> ISSUE-2194 -- Syntax of some list-type attributes in SVG
   Tiny 1.2 incompatible with those in SVG 1.1 -- RAISED

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2194

     [20] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2194

   CMC: someone noted on svgdevelopers that the glyphname, g1 and g2
   attributes took semicolon-separated lists in 1.2T, but
   commawhitespace-separated lists in 1.1

   DS: we should look at the cvs logs

   CMC: may have been me doing list-of-<T> changes

   DS: I like the standard solution comma-whitespace separated lists

   CMC: i think we found that implementations accepted both syntaxes

   DS: e.g in viewBox we only allow space-separation, but we should
   allow commas there...trips people up
   ... another one is stroke-dasharray
   ... only allows spaces
   ... ASV allowes spaces, commas or both

   CMC: the only place where you might want to disallow commas are
   values that are strings, where a comma can be part of the value

   DS: right, so we should make that the exception

   CMC: we should errata this particular one

   DS: I think we might have an issue for core regarding this anyway

   CMC: any objections to adding an errata for 1.2T to align with 1.1?

   (none heard)

   <heycam> trackbot, search issues for list

   <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, search
   issues for list'. Please refer to
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

   <shepazu> [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2135

     [22] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2135

   DS: i don't find a corresponding issue to ACTION-2135... I'll raise
   one now

   CMC: not everything is setup for 1.2T errata yet


     [23] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/fonts.html#HKernElementG1Attribute

   JW: maybe have two erratas, one for 1.2T to allow comma-separation,
   and one for 1.1 that allows whitespace as the separator so that the
   syntax is fully aligned for glyphname, g1 and g2

   DS: agreed
   ... we could also address this later (in core2) instead of issuing
   an errata for 1.2T
   ... ultimately what we want is to unify the syntaxes

   <scribe> ACTION: CMC to create an errata for 1.2T with the first
   item being the comma-separation of glyphname, g1, g2 [recorded in

   <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - CMC

   <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to create an errata for 1.2T with the first
   item being the comma-separation of glyphname, g1, g2 [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2390 - Create an errata for 1.2T with the
   first item being the comma-separation of glyphname, g1, g2 [on
   Cameron McCormack - due 2009-01-12].


     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/REC-SVGTiny12-20081222-errata.html

SVG 1.1 errata

   <heycam> [27]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml

     [27] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml

   CMC: looking at the errata file, there are only a few left open as
   ... JW have you had a chance to look at the zoomevent ones?

   JW: not yet

   <shepazu> [28]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users/34802

     [28] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users/34802


     [29] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#reword-f5-tangents



   <trackbot> ACTION-2362 -- Erik Dahlström to backport the zero length
   path wording from 1.2T to this "Reword F.5 Tangents" erratum -- due
   2008-12-04 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2362

     [30] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2362

   <shepazu> ISSUE-2195

   trackbot, close ACTION-2377

   <trackbot> ACTION-2377 Announce the xmas break closed


     [31] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#bzwidth

   CMC: DS did you have an action related to taht?

   <shepazu> [32]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users/38635

     [32] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users/38635

   <heycam> [33]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2370

     [33] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2370

   <shepazu> [34]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2368

     [34] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2368


     [35] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#currenttranslate-currentscale-nested-svg

   CMC: missing the suggested text there

   DS: ok, will get to that one

   CMC: ok, all assigned then...we can move on

clipping and pointer-events

   DS: JW have you had a chance to look at that one?

   JW: not yet

   DS: (explains clipping and pointer-events, if reading minutes please
   see previous minutes where this was discussed)

   <jwatt> is it just me having problems hearing?

   CMC: the idea is to use the visible* values for clipped parts of the
   shape...so that if you had a clipped shape with visiblePainted you
   wouldn't get pointerevents on parts that were clipped away
   ... afterwards there were some comments on the www-svg list about
   this, from thomas deweese


     [36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Nov/0064.html

   DS: a brief summary is that he's afraid that it may make conforming
   content nonconforming
   ... cases that use clippath sort of like a fake window

   CMC: right, for something like a scrolling window...without knowing
   what the content is exactly
   ... so you wouldn't be able to control that the pointer-events
   couldn't be captured on the clipped out path, because the content
   inside that ou don't control might use pointer-events=fill
   ... especially since that's the suggested way of doing
   pointer-events on invisible rects
   ... behaviour would change for those cases
   ... i think what thomas wants is a separate attribute/prperty to
   control events wrt clipping

   <jwatt> how about I read through the thread and reply with my
   thoughts on the list?

   CMC: yes, your input would be helpful

testsuite infrastructure

   <heycam> ED: (talks about his work in removing svggen/, he has it
   working locally)

   <heycam> ED: there's some platform-specific code in the testsuite
   scripts, e.g. use of xcopy

   <heycam> ED: i changed it to use cp instead

   <heycam> ED: this is for the 1.2T test suite

   <heycam> ED: I can commit the changes

   <heycam> ED: getting rid of svggen/ doesn't seem to be a major

   <heycam> ED: i could commit the changes i've made to the script
   files, and not do anything about the rest, that way we still have
   all the generated files like before

   <heycam> ED: this does change all of the harness files, because you
   change the links from svggen/ to svg/ instead

   <heycam> CM: does that affect revision numbers in the slides?

   <heycam> ED: no, it wouldn't affect it at all

   <heycam> ED: we could regenerate the slides if we want, but we don't
   have to

   <heycam> ED: i think the slides are generated from svg/ anyway

   <heycam> ED: should i commit the harness files and remove the svg/

   <heycam> DS: yes

   ED: ok, will do that and close the action

   CMC: the other listed actions in hte agenda are maybe more for core

   DS: yes and no...we should adopt a test-first methodology
   ... we should have more tests, and we should solve that by writing
   tests as we move the spec forward
   ... the earlier we have test infrastructure in place the better

brief SVG in HTML

   CMC: I should get the discussion going on the list again
   ... have an action to summarize previous discussion


     [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0128.html

   <heycam> ED: we can look at that thread and discuss on thursday

   <heycam> CM: also erik pointed out that the HTMLWG's proposal now
   works with SVG <font> elements

other open issues and actions

   CMC: i wanted to make sure we have a procedure for issues
   ... we should make use of the raised for issues we should discuss
   ... and use open for when we have discussed them
   ... in tracker

   DS: that leaves out bugzilla that some ppl have been using recently
   ... might be possible to have an automated process that raises the
   issues for the public
   ... bugzilla doubles our work for any given issue

   CMC: some other groups only have an html form that people can fill
   things in
   ... for comments...I think it was xquery

   JW: what's the problem with opening tracker to the public?

   DS: might be extra work for systems staff

   JW: i would like a public tracker

   DS: if mozilla can provide resources to fix tracker that'd be
   ... I won't close down the public bugzilla until we have a public

   CMC: JW you are aware that the tracker is publicly readable, right?

   JW: but you can't comment on the issue or raise new issues?

   DS: no
   ... on the one hand bugzilla isn't well suited for spec stuff
   ... and it's duplicating effort
   ... we have to keep track of both
   ... or actually, the tracker, bugzilla and the mailinglists
   ... tracker is good for some things, but is perhaps too simple for
   some things
   ... not sure how difficult it'd be to take features from bugzilla
   and add them to tracker

   JW: is tracker w3c internal?

   DS: yes

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to create an errata for 1.2T with the first
   item being the comma-separation of glyphname, g1, g2 [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: CMC to create an errata for 1.2T with the first item
   being the comma-separation of glyphname, g1, g2 [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: DS to review the progressevents spec
   ([40]http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan) and
   send comments to public-svg-wg [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: ed to review the progressevents spec
   ([42]http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan) and
   send comments to public-svg-wg [recorded in

     [40] http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan
     [42] http://www.w3.org/mid/op.um15r1xnwxe0ny@widsithpro.lan

   [End of minutes]

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [44]scribe.perl version 1.133
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    $Date: 2009/01/05 21:11:32 $

     [44] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [45] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51
Check for newer version at [46]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002

     [46] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/reviewer/review/
Found Scribe: erik
Found ScribeNick: ed__
Default Present: Shepazu, ed__, jwatt, heycam, Doug_Schepers
Present: Shepazu ed__ jwatt heycam Doug_Schepers
Agenda: [47]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090105045954.GB9067@arc.mcc.id.au
Found Date: 05 Jan 2009
Guessing minutes URL: [48]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/05-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: cameron cmc ds ed

     [47] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090105045954.GB9067@arc.mcc.id.au
     [48] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/05-svg-minutes.html

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Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 5 January 2009 21:15:52 GMT

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