- From: Chris Lilley <chris@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:27:13 +0200
- To: public-svg-wg@w3.org
Hello,
Minutes for Thursday 23 Oct TPAC session are at
http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html
and below as text for bots. Notice that the list of 'Present' seems to have been overwritten during the day.
SVG Working Group Teleconference
23 Oct 2008
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Ori_Idan, Fons_Kui, jk, Jun_Fujisawa, Doug_Schepers, Erik_Dahlstrom, Anthony_Grasso, Al_gilman, Chris_Lilley, dino
Regrets
Chair
Erik
Scribe
anthony, Erik, Chris
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]LC comments
2. [5]ISSUE-2085
3. [6]ISSUE-2094
4. [7]ISSUE-2107
5. [8]ISSUE-2110
6. [9]ISSUE-2130
7. [10]ISSUE-2139
8. [11]ISSUE-2145
9. [12]SVG IG Japan
10. [13]SVG JIS Standard
11. [14]svg transformations module
12. [15]next F2F meeting(s)
13. [16]More Last Call Comments
14. [17]Testing
* [18]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 23 October 2008
LC comments
<ed>
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-svg-editors/2008Oct/0
322.html
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-svg-editors/2008Oct/0322.html
<anthony> scribe: anthony
<ed> [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/11
[20] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/11
ISSUE-2085
ISSUE-2085?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2085 -- Spec unclear where focus should initially
go when a document is loaded -- OPEN
<trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2085
[21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2085
ED: Issue raised by Ikivo
... NH has an action to propose new wording
DS: Perhaps we should make a proposal to him
<fat_tony> scribeNick: fat_tony
<ed>
[22]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/interact.html#naviga
tionbehaviour
[22] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/interact.html#navigationbehaviour
ED: The thing he is complaining about is the steps for how focus
navigation behaves
... You can interpreter this in a few ways
... that's not necessarily a bad thing
DS: Do we talk about document focus vs UA focus
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Propose wording for document focus vs user
agent focus that addresses ISSUE-2085 [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2324 - Propose wording for document focus
vs user agent focus that addresses ISSUE-2085 [on Doug Schepers -
due 2008-10-30].
ISSUE-2094
ISSUE-2094?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2094 -- accessing rules for traitAccess -- OPEN
<trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2094
[24] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2094
ED: We have two open actions there
... one is on me
... the other on A Emmons
... and A Emmons had the action to respond to the commenter
DS: Who was this for?
ED: Julien R
... I'll just check the public mailing list
AG: Did you make the change?
ED: No he's just asking for an answer
... it's not clear that he wants anything changed
DS: What's the justification for the ones we chose not to change?
ED: I really hoped A Emmons would take care of this
... he seemed to have a good grasp on it
AG: Can we ping him at lunchtime?
DS: We can always send him an email
ISSUE-2107
ISSUE-2107?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2107 -- i18n comment 6: Direction and bidi-override
attributes -- RAISED
<trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2107
[25] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2107
ED: Is this done?
DS: We really need Chris here for this
... and the next one 2110
... these are both internationalisation issues
OI: Bidi direction is important to the I18N
... I think there are issues with Right-to-Left and Tob-to-Bottom
DS: We do not cover vertical text in Tiny
... but we do in full
AG: The wording in the specification allows for support for
Top-to-Bottom text
... but doesn't mandate it
DS: Tiny 1.1 is just subset of features in full
ED: We do have tests for Right-to-Left and Top-to-Bottom
... but they are simple tests
... we don't test all the tricky cases
... so with the issue here I do agree with it
... the last comment I believe is a miss understanding
OI: [Reads Issue]
ED: There is nothing preventing you from doing that
... [Explains feature]
OI: Is inherited like CSS?
ED: Yes it is
OI: If it is inherited like CSS that is ok
ED: We took the direction property from CSS
... so it should be the same
OI: The default is Left-to-Right
DS: Would it be worth noting that in the spec
OI: Could say that the property of RtL is inherited from the top
block
... then it will be inherited to the terms inside it
... that's in CSS
... what is it in your terms
ED: text content element is the term for it
DS: I think this is just an authoring note
... if you put direction in the root of the document
... it will apply only to text elements
... it could confuse people because it's not like "text-direction"
ED: It does map to the CSS property
OI: You should note that it only applies to text blocks
... if I have a text block with direction RtL and a nested text
block is also RtL
DS: And of course override-able
ED: That's one of his requests
... to have examples
... I think it would be useful to have the inheriting thing
explained
OI: So people know that there is inheritance?
... may not be necessary
DS: More so for authors rather than implementers
... I think I'm going to put in a note
... because it's not really clear that direction applies to text
OI: The direction property only applies to text
... not to graphics
ED: Another comment he makes here in this issue
... that we say in the spec that authors are discouraged from using
direction and unicode-bidi
DS: [Reads out issue]
... so what this sentence means for people using western languages
don't mess with this
OI: Do you understand the issue if you place a dot after it
... the unicode algorithm doesn't know about the dot if it's LtR or
RtL
... That's a problem with 'weak directionality'
... they don't have a directionality
ED: Just need to clean up the wording on this issue and make an
example or two
OI: I can review the wording now if you want
ED: So in this issue there was not suggested text (wording)
... there's no concrete proposal on this issue
OI: I can review this issue, propose wording and make an example
ED: If you can make an example sure, that'd be great
... so he's example for the example of using RtL on the top and
unicode-bidi embed
DS: Did we decide about the in most cases?
ED: Ori said he's happy to review any text proposal we have
... if you can propose some new wording that would be great
OI: I'm not on the mailing list but I will send you an email
... Here's a small HTML example
... [shows example]
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Propose wording and examples for ISSUE-2017
[recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2325 - Propose wording and examples for
ISSUE-2107 [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-10-30].
ISSUE-2110
ISSUE-2110?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2110 -- i18n comment 8: Text rendering order --
RAISED
<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2110
[27] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2110
OI: I think this is very similar
... oh wait, this is different
... that would be great if the direction of RtL that right glyph
would be rendered first
... I think it would be nice
... but it is not a must
... that the right most glyph would be rendered first
... would be good from slow implementations so you can read the
glyphs as they're being rendered
ED: I'm not sure that the sentence is saying that
OI: That's how I read it
... [reads sentence out]
DS: So when it says rendering, I don't think the rendering would be
slow
... if they're overlapping then the order matters
OI: If they're not overlapping and the rendering order is not fast
enough
... then you'll notice it
... do you think there'll be any slow implementation?
... do you think there'll be a slow application in a hand held
device with a slow processor
... it only matters if this is a slow rendering device
DS: Honestly I'd be very surprised
... because the text is processed as a block
... and put in order for placing on the canvas
ED: I mean rendering part of text content block would be very
strange
OI: If the user agent that does the rendering to a canvas is it
possible
... there is actually know mean for the rendering order of blocks
DS: Individual characters in the block may over lap due to kerning
<ed>
[28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Oct/0117.html
[28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Oct/0117.html
ED: Chris has suggested new wording there
<shepazu>
[29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Oct/0179.html
[29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Oct/0179.html
DS: Here is my reply
... if the glyphs are reordered in the byte stream what happens?
OI: Why would that happen?
DS: Richard says it could; for example South East Asian characters
... we need Richard for this
ED: We may need some tests
OI: We need a Hebreu for this
... or Arabic
... and for South East Asian languages
... maybe Richard can supply us an example today
DS: There is nothing stopping us for making examples today
... but it needs to be done in two days
ED: How is this handled in HTML again?
... is this already addressed
OI: Yes, it works fine
... I'm not sure about the rendering order
... in HTML it doesn't matter
DS: Yes you can
... because of CSS
... they are adding Opacity in CSS
... so they will run into the same issues
... with letter spacing
... so HTML and CSS has the same problem
ED: For consistency we use the same algorithm
OI: For consistency can we say it's defined in HTML
DS: Probably not
OI: The issue is the running order just as Richard sent in
ISSUE-2110
ED: I mentioned reasons for reordering
... so I agree to that one
... the one that Chris sent
OI: The reason we need to discuss rendering order is for when we
have overlap
... I agree with Chris
ED: So essentially this is rendering the first character you'd read
OI: I agree with Chris
... not to sure about what Doug is saying
... we need a clarification from Richard
ED: Does this address the whole issue
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to Add the proposed wording for ISSUE-2110
[recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2326 - Add the proposed wording for
ISSUE-2110 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-10-30].
ISSUE-2130
ISSUE-2130?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2130 -- Basic Data Types section needs
clarifications -- OPEN
<trackbot> [31]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2130
[31] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2130
<ChrisL> RIM states that they use SVG Tiny 1.2
<ChrisL>
[32]http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=2
11600037
[32] http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=211600037
<ChrisL> RIM engineers are looking at supporting 3-D graphics,
probably through adopting the Java specification for OpenGL ES (JSR
239). The company is also broadly adopting 2-D scalable vector
graphics such as SVG Tiny 1.2. It first used SVG in version 4.6 for
the Blackberry Bold phone.
<ChrisL> "We are looking at doing fairly complete support for SVG in
all the places an image needs support in a device," said Liam Quinn,
who heads browser development at RIM.
<ChrisL> issue-2130?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2130 -- Basic Data Types section needs
clarifications -- OPEN
<trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2130
[33] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2130
CL: We had a related issue which was about xml:id and the XML Schema
... and we resolved to fix the schema
... which fixes the first part of the issue
... for the second one
... we are asked to supply an example
... this is related to XML namespacing
DS: He may simply not understand what QNames are
... I guess we could add a quick example
<ChrisL> XML namespaces has two methods, one for elements
(unprefixed ones use the default namespace) and one for attributes
(where unprefixed ones do not).
<ChrisL> Following the tag finding on qnames in attribute values,
and common practice, qnames in attribute values also do not use
default namespaces
<ChrisL> [34]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/qnameids.html
[34] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/qnameids.html
<ChrisL> This wording needs to be clarified
<ChrisL> "If the <QName> has a prefix, then the prefix is expanded
into an IRI reference using the namespace declarations in effect
where the name occurs, and the default namespace is not used for
unprefixed names. "
<ChrisL> ACTION: Chris to clarify QName expansion to tuples
[recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2327 - Clarify QName expansion to tuples
[on Chris Lilley - due 2008-10-30].
<ChrisL> "If the <QName> has a prefix, then the prefix is expanded
into a tuple of an IRI reference and a local name, using the
namespace declarations in effect where the name occurs. Note that,
as with unprefixed attributes, the default namespace is not used for
unprefixed names. "
CL: Proposed sentence in IRC
<ChrisL> The relevant part of the tag finding, that we follow, is
"Specifications that use QNames to represent {URI, local-name} pairs
MUST describe the algorithm that is used to map between them."
CL: So an example would be if you're animating an attribute name is
stroke
... you'd be animating "stroke" and not "svg:stroke"
... [reads out rest of issue]
... so his third one is because in the schema we haven't defined
anything as frame target
... do we want to patch up the schema to define something called
"frame name"
DS: Do we define what a frame target is?
... we can add a definition
CL: Where is frame target used
ED: Linking, I think the <a> element
<ed>
[36]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/linking.html#AElemen
tTargetAttribute
[36] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/linking.html#AElementTargetAttribute
<ChrisL> [37]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/linking.html#AElement
[37] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/linking.html#AElement
CL: [Reads part out in spec]
<ChrisL> "<frame-target>"
<ChrisL> Specifies the name of the frame, pane, or other relevant
presentation context for display of the linked content. If this
already exists, it is re-used, replacing the existing content. if it
does not exist, it is created (the same as _blank, except that it
now has a name). Note that frame-target must be an XML Name [XML11].
<ChrisL> we could link XML Name to the types chapter
<ChrisL> basically frame-target is of type XML Name. So there is no
error in the spec
CL: The next one handler, string
... XML doesn't call string "strings"
ED: What does XML Events say?
<ChrisL> for the next two, XML-NMTOKEN is a subset of string
ED: is it just an XML token?
CL: And we have a link to the types which say NMToken
<ChrisL> NMTOKEN is correct, and links to
[38]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/types.html#DataTypeXML-NMTOKEN
[38] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/types.html#DataTypeXML-NMTOKEN
<ChrisL> 'string' is too loose and should be corrected
CL: Which chapter is handler in?
ED: Scripting
<ChrisL> we can edit the spec where it says string
ED: Do we just have XML-NMToken as a basic type?
CL: Yes
ED: We do us XML name
... on listener
... but not on handler
CL: I've corrected handler
... I don't see it on listener
ED: It's using XMLName, it should be using NMToken in that case
CL: So this is in the scripting chapter?
ED: Yes
<ed> heycam: I have an up-to-date tools directory
<ed> note that someone might have changed the example, we did
discuss it
ISSUE-2139
ISSUE-2139?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2139 -- Add note regarding eRR attribute and
prefetch element -- RAISED
<trackbot> [39]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2139
[39] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2139
ED: A Emmons did send proposed text
... and Cyril responded to say if the text is added then he'll be
fine with that
<scribe> ACTION: Anthony to Add the text from the wording proposed
by A Emmons to the specification regarding ISSUE2139 [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2328 - Add the text from the wording
proposed by A Emmons to the specification regarding ISSUE2139 [on
Anthony Grasso - due 2008-10-30].
ISSUE-2145
ISSUE-2145?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2145 -- Clarify media timeline and document
timeline -- RAISED
<trackbot> [41]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2145
[41] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2145
DS: He hasn't offered anything helpful regarding the issue
ED: Do we want to postpone this
DS: We will look at this one in a bit
<ed> png?
<scribe> scribe: Anthony
<scribe> scribeNick: fat_tony
SVG IG Japan
JF: Just started the activity in Japan
... for SVG IG
... created a mailing list
... had first f2f meeting on Friday
... the second is on 12th Nov
... and we invited Doug to talk to the group
... the group includes Takagi-san from KDDI and Takahashi-san fromm
Indigo and Mori-san from Osaka City Uni
CL: Where is the mailing list?
JF: Yes it is in W3C
... there are several people from JIPDEC
<ChrisL> [42]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig-jp/
[42] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig-jp/
JF: JIPDEC is a Japanese standards body
<ChrisL> JIPDEC - Japan Information Processing Development
Corporation
JF: that is managing the standarisation of SVG in Japan
<ChrisL> [43]http://www.jipdec.or.jp/eng/
[43] http://www.jipdec.or.jp/eng/
DS: JIPDEC sells copies of the JIS standard
<shepazu> s/11th Nov/12th Nov/
JF: Keio W3C will have JPC meeting on the 6th November
... so we can expect more traffic on SVG IG JP
DS: If Kaz can translate the description on the public mailing list
page in English to Japanese
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Coordinate on Kaz on JP IG list description
[recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2329 - Coordinate on Kaz on JP IG list
description [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-10-30].
<ChrisL> list description is in english currently
<ChrisL> [45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig-jp/
[45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig-jp/
JF: Currently our main activity in SVG IG JP is to support the SVG
JIS standardisation
... and coordinate with other people. Another activity is to promote
the usage of SVG for
... web mapping in Japan
... we will working on a new module called SVG Map module
CL: This is related to the existing JIS standard?
JF: No this is a different module and and email to promote it has
been sent out
... we will work on a complete module
... so we can make a complete proposal to SVG WG
... we also considering on gathering SVG map data in Japan
... and publish the map data on the SVG community site
... possibly on planet SVG
CL: Are there minutes of the F2F meeting?
JF: Yes minutes were scribed but they are in Japanese
... by Kaz
DS: I want to thank you for all your effort you have put into this
<ChrisL> thats good. hope to see them on the mailing list
DS: The fact that you are the chair of the SVG IG is really good. I
appreciate that
SVG JIS Standard
JF: On the same date we had the first SVG JIS committee meeting
... Hagino-san of W3C Keio is the manager
... and the goal is to create a JIS Standard for the SVG based
format for mapping
... and that includes a complete translated specification of SVG
Tiny 1.2
DS: When will they begin translation?
JF: As soon as PR is available
... in the first committee meeting we discussed the possible
category of the JIS standard
... and also the structure of the standard has been discussed
... there are two possible categories, one is mapping
... and networking category
DS: Can it be in both?
JF: That is an important point
... as for the structure four possibilities was suggested
... the first is the one just for SVG
... and one for SVG map module
... the second is to have just one standard just for SVG map module
and that will be different from the SVG Tiny 1.2 spec
... and the third possibility is to have a single JIS standard to
have branch of map module
... and the last possibility is to have a single combined
specification which has SVG map and SVG Tiny all in one
CL: There are advantages of each
JF: There are some people who think that it is not useful out side
of the use case of mapping
... we had the conclusion that there will be a map module and a
network module
... in the last committee meeting they decided to have a separate
standard for SVG Tiny and a separate for SVG Map module
<ChrisL> Its my preference also, to have one standard which is
SVGT1.2 in Japanese, and a second one which is SVG Mapping and could
be submitted to W3C so we can have it as an W#C spec in English as
well
JF: so we hope that we can bring the Map module to the working group
DS: I know Andreas will be interested in this module
... the other thing that KDDI is not a member of W3C
<ChrisL> I would like to see the Japanese version on the W3C site as
an official translation
DS: so they can't make a submission
JF: It will be a proposal from the IG
CL: We need to get patent statements from all of the authors
... agreeing to W3C patent policy
JF: People in SVG IG JP agree to W3C patent policy
<ChrisL> [46]http://www.svgopen.org/2004/papers/indigo/
[46] http://www.svgopen.org/2004/papers/indigo/
<ChrisL> Development of location based search engine service using
goSVG
<ChrisL> Yuzo Matsuzawa
<ChrisL> Indigo Corporation
JF: The goal is to come up with SVG Map profile which might be based
on SVG 2.0 Core
... or some other useful module like Transforms
... SVG JIS project will be two year
... it started this April and ended in Mar 2009
... that is the goal in the first year to do the translation
... of the whole specification
... we have to finish the translation around the end of next March
... in the second year the committee will take a formal process to
publish the standard
... in order to achieve this the timing for SVG Tiny to achieve PR
and Rec is important
... and will start the translation as soon as the PR spec is
published
... so we hope this will happen in early Nov
DS: So you will start translating when it's in PR and not Rec
correct?
JF: Yes
DS: So as part of the translation I'm sure they will find typos
... I'd be surprised if reading the specification they will not be
confused, will they be able to propose a question
... if the english is not clear
JF: The problem is the translation is out sourced
... but perhaps the SVG IG can review the translation
CL: If someone perhaps miss understand somethings
... then it would be nice for it to come back to us
DS: They have an investment on getting it correct
... if something is confusing to the translator they should know
that they should communicate with the SVG WG
<ChrisL2> its good in that case to ask the WG for clarification.
Sometimes the English is not clear to a non native speaker.
(Actually some of the spec is written by non-native speakers, too)
DS: Our plan is early next week we will do our call for transition
... it is possible as early as Wed
... we think we can go to PR on Nov 3rd as PR and we will to Rec on
Dec 2nd
CL: When we go to Rec we will make a press release
... it would be nice to have Canon on the press release
DS: Just so you know RIM has announced that it is developing SVG
Tiny 1.2
<ed> scribe: Erik
<ed> scribeNick: ed
svg transformations module
<dino> i just sent in comments on svg transformations. Did they make
it to the list?
<dino> shepazu, are you moderator?
<shepazu> dino, just modded it
<shepazu> dino: can you join us?
<dino> shepazu, thankyou!
<dino> yes, i'll come up if you promise to be nice
DS: dino sent another message (I'm moderating this now, it got
caught)
[47]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/022
4.html
[47] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0224.html
AG: sent the proposal to the public wg list
... tried to keep it as close as possible to the css proposal
... the one in css uses z-order
... I decided to leave that out for now and use the painters
algorithm
... it's an extension of the svg 2d transforms
... it's extended to 3x4 matrix to give you the extra rotation
capabilities
... we think that's all that's necessary
... obviously extending this means we need to extend the DOM
interfaces
DS: does this have impacts on declarative animations?
AG: yes, we need to consider that use-case
... and we need to add a section there to say how that should be
handle
... if you have a circle on top of a rectangle and you rotate both
as a group you'll still see the circle because it's on top of the
rect
... rotate in the 3d sense
DJ: the way css transformations work is that anything that has a
transforms gets a css stacking context
... which means it goes into the z-index system
... z-index doesn't mean position, it's just like an offscreen
buffer and the order you draw those
... you can have something something with a z value that puts
something close to the viewer, but have a z-index that puts it below
some other elements
... one question is how the svg transformations are supposed to be
rendered
CL: it's hard to do a rotation of two elements that rotate in a
circle in z
if you have two elements in differnt 3d coordinate systems each
group is rendered in two offscreens, so you can't have one elements
sometimes in front of and sometimes behind
DJ: most systems in 3d don't allow you to do grouping
CL: opengl doesn't allow that, but PHIGS does
... opengl is immidiatemode, PHIGS is more like svg, it has a
structure and a DOM, it has nesting, transformations
... in PHIGS has the same concept of grouping and transformations as
svg, but everything is in the same 3d coordinate system
ALG: are you talking about real 3d rendering in svg? is there any
use in x3d?
CL: 3d rendering in 2d
DJ: you can position things but it's like drawing a postcard in 3d
space
CL: 2.5d is 3x3 matrices
AG: the problem is that it's bad for authoring, it's difficult to
write the transformations and hard to animate
DS: are we proposing 2.5d or 3d transforms?
AG: localized 3d transforms
... it's still sort of 2.5d because you don't have a single 3d
coordinate system, you have localized 3d coordinate systems
CL: the 3d transforms are still affine transforms?
DJ: the proposal canon sent has non-affine transformations available
... 3d affine transforms
... they have true perspective, so they're not 2d affine transforms
CL: normally geometry are seen as structure
... in svg, and colors and such are seen as styling, so properties
vs attributes
DS: but if it's going to be in css it should be properties
CL: but then the transforms in svg should also be properties?
AG: the reason for having them as properties is to keep it as close
to css as possible
ED: people have been asking for transforms to be in css for some
time (even for svg use-cases)
DS: can you still have the animated "starwars" effect?
AG/DJ: yes
CL: how do we move this forward?
AG: what's the priority of transforms in css?
DJ: it's not part of css until the group is rechartered
... mozilla just implemented css transforms, but only the 2d parts
DS: are you willing to work with the SVGWG to move this forward?
DJ: currently css transforms can apply to svg root elements only,
like a postcard
DS: we need to figure out how SVG and CSS should work together wrt
to transforms
DJ: there are no units in svg in transform values, might be a
problem for example
AG: i'm happy to work with the css wg to move this
DJ: mostly the proposals are the same
... we now do a full 4x4 matrix
... things you need to be aware of
... hit testing
AG: and how do you get boundingboxes?
<ChrisL2> non-invertible matices. singularities
DJ: we have it on the phones
... what happens is that sometimes, with overflow hidden in css, you
have to flatten the whole tree
... sometimes it looks like 3d but it's really not
... [draws on whiteboard]
<fantasai> There were two concerns that came up when we discussed
transforms in Beijing
<fantasai> one was syntax: making the syntax match more closely CSS
conventions
<fantasai> the other was the default value of the property
<fantasai> which can't be the same as the identity transform
<fantasai> because transformation needs to trigger some side effects
in CSS
<fantasai> such as turning the element into a block formatting
context
DJ: clipping in 3d is difficult
<fantasai> so it contains all its floating children ,etc
DJ: you can't preserve 3d and have clipping
<ChrisL2> yes. so the initial value needs to be 'no transform
applied' so you dont get a css stacking context, right?
DJ: the transforms spec isn't very big, but it's probably full of
things that needs further discussion
... perspective-transform ...??
... read our proposal and ask for clarifications where needed
... reason we haven't got much feedback is probably because not many
have tried implementing it so far
... css has a lot of edge cases that affect the 3d transforms
CL: the initial value for transform needs to be 'none' not identity,
because it sets up a stacking context
DJ: it's nice to put the perspective on a parent div or svg:g, and
then use it for the child elements
AG: understand the need to the property
DJ: preserve3d is something svg would need too probably
AG: it would be nice to have DJ for another F2F for more discussion
on this
... we could achieve faster progress that way
DJ: i'll join the svg mailinglist
JF: it's important to work with the CSSWG on this
... we don't want two specs on this
RESOLUTION: we won't form a joint taskforce, we'll work with DJ and
the CSS WG to ensure that 3d transforms can be used in both CSS,
HTML and SVG
next F2F meeting(s)
JF: canon has an experimental implementation of the 3d transforms
module in svg, and we can confirm that we can easily describe
3d-based UI:s by using this
... maybe at the next F2F we can have a demo ready
<ChrisL2> Foundations of Open Media Software (FOMS)
AG: we can host the next F2F in sydney, we want to do it after the
FOMS conference
([48]http://www.foms-workshop.org/foms2009/pmwiki.php/Main/CFP)
[48] http://www.foms-workshop.org/foms2009/pmwiki.php/Main/CFP)
<ChrisL2> Developer Workshop
<ChrisL2> Thursday 15 - Friday 16 January 2009
<ChrisL2> Hobart (Tasmania), Australia
<ChrisL2>
[49]http://www.foms-workshop.org/foms2009/pmwiki.php/Main/CFP
[49] http://www.foms-workshop.org/foms2009/pmwiki.php/Main/CFP
AG: so Jan 19
ED: i would prefer to have it a bit later
CL: there's is an AC meeting in march
ED: early february would be better
DS: i'll be speaking at a conference in february, *checking when*
... let's schedule the f2f for february 16-20
<fantasai> Minutes from CSSWG meeting in Beijing:
[50]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2007JulSep/0184.h
tml
[50] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2007JulSep/0184.html
<ChrisL2> Scribe: Chris
<ChrisL2> scribenick: ChrisL2
More Last Call Comments
<ed> [51]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/11
[51] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/11
ED: We now have only 9 issues
[52]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/11
[52] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/11
ISSUE-2153
RNG link
Link to RelaxNG Schema
ISSUE-2153?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2153 -- Link to RelaxNG Schema -- RAISED
<trackbot> [53]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2153
[53] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2153
this can be closed, Doug has updated the spec to point to the actual
correct RNG that we are all editing
also the make scrip updates this master -> publish
ISSUE-2145?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2145 -- Clarify media timeline and document
timeline -- RAISED
<trackbot> [54]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2145
[54] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2145
ED: Prefer to have AE on this one
sync behaviours not currently impleented in Opera
postpone to tomorrow?
DS: Perfer to do not if poss
ED: Some suggested text in the comment
(we discuss 'locked')
CL: On this part "The specification should say what happens when a
video/audio element points to a file or a set of streams containing
multiple audio tracks (english and french, or AAC and AC3) or
multiple video tracks.
"
the answer is that it depends on whatever fragment syntax is defined
for that media type registration. Depends also on what the media
fragents WG comes up with
there are other technologies that relate to this eg MPEG-21
its outside our spec. But clearly something that needs to be solved
DS: on his second-;ast para
ED: .... agree about media timeline rather than 'play time'
CL: What does smil say about sync delay and the allowed amount of
sync?
ED: eg a straming video, it can be difficult to seek back. Thats an
example where the media timeline cannot be controlled
... not always possible to restart from time zero
DS: Media eleents are time containers. So locking one does not lock
its parent
CL: But if they are locked, and you pause the child, what happens to
the parent. Thats what he is asking
[55]http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL2/smil-timing.html#Timing-ControllingRu
ntimeSync
[55] http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL2/smil-timing.html#Timing-ControllingRuntimeSync
DS; Lockimng is only in terms of timeline sync, so if you pause an
element its timeline is frozen; when its playing its synced to the
parent
CL: I read there "Note that the semantics of syncBehavior do not
describe or require a particular approach to maintaining sync; the
approach will be implementation dependent. Possible means of
resolving a sync conflict may include:"
also under "Paused elements and the active duration"
"In addition, when an element is paused, the accumulated
synchronization offset will increase to reflect the altered sync
relationship. See also The accumulated synchronization offset."
[56]http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL2/smil-timing.html#Timing-PausedElement
sAndActiveDur
[56] http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL2/smil-timing.html#Timing-PausedElementsAndActiveDur
DS: So in the end its defined by SMIL there
ED: So I can change playtime. will do that now
<scribe> ACTION: Doug respond on ISSUE-2145 citing these minutes and
pointing to SMIL 2.1 to talk about elapsed time offset when paused
[recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2330 - Respond on ISSUE-2145 citing these
minutes and pointing to SMIL 2.1 to talk about elapsed time offset
when paused [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-10-30].
ISSUE-2107?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2107 -- i18n comment 6: Direction and bidi-override
attributes -- OPEN
<trackbot> [58]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2107
[58] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2107
CL: We are almost done on that one
... we had a native Hebrew speaker earlier today check our examples
and tests
... its added to the spec, tested and impleented
... doug has an action to add an example to the spec
DS: Want a step by step example and also a template for people to
follow
Still open until the examples are added
Still open until the examples are added
<ChrisL> ISSUE-2147?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2147 -- Section on externally referenced documents
confusing -- OPEN
<trackbot> [59]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2147
[59] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2147
<ChrisL> ED: Cameron wrote about this on public list. 2 script
elements with same UIR, execute twice not once so section is
incorrect
<ChrisL> DS: That section is badly writted
<ChrisL> ED: AE did a small rewrite of some of it
<ChrisL> DS: I sent an email with a more extensive rewrite
<ChrisL> ED: There are multiple copy pasted sentences there
<shepazu>
[60]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/att
-0161/externalRefs.html
[60] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/att-0161/externalRefs.html
<ChrisL> 14.1.6 Externally referenced documents
<ChrisL>
[61]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/linking.html#externalReferences
[61] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/linking.html#externalReferences
<ed> DS: my proposed text is the last one in the externalRefs.html
file above
<ChrisL> ED: Scripting chapter covers the script case, Cameron fixed
it
<ed>
[62]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/021
6.html
[62] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0216.html
<ed> actually not yet
<ed>
[63]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/020
1.html
[63] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0201.html
<ChrisL> the questions on external media and external scripts are in
fact completely independent of the section on primary and resource
documents, which are only about svg
Testing
<ChrisL> media-audio-206-t is passed in GPAC
<ChrisL> but animate-elem-226-t fails
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Anthony to Add the text from the wording proposed by A
Emmons to the specification regarding ISSUE2139 [recorded in
[64]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to clarify QName expansion to tuples [recorded
in [65]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug respond on ISSUE-2145 citing these minutes and
pointing to SMIL 2.1 to talk about elapsed time offset when paused
[recorded in
[66]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to Coordinate on Kaz on JP IG list description
[recorded in
[67]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to Propose wording and examples for ISSUE-2017
[recorded in
[68]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to Propose wording for document focus vs user
agent focus that addresses ISSUE-2085 [recorded in
[69]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to Add the proposed wording for ISSUE-2110
[recorded in
[70]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [71]scribe.perl version 1.133
([72]CVS log)
$Date: 2008/10/23 16:15:57 $
_________________________________________________________
[71] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[72] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
--
Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org
Technical Director, Interaction Domain
W3C Graphics Activity Lead
Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG
Received on Friday, 24 October 2008 07:27:26 UTC