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RE: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan

From: Hausenblas, Michael <michael.hausenblas@joanneum.at>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:42:22 +0100
Message-ID: <768DACDC356ED04EA1F1130F97D2985201379900@RZJC2EX.jr1.local>
To: <paola.dimaio@gmail.com>, "Lloyd Rutledge" <Lloyd.Rutledge@cwi.nl>
Cc: "Max Wilson" <mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, <editor@content-wire.com>, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org>, <emmanuelle@sidar.org>, "T.Heath" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk>, "SW-forum Web" <semantic-web@w3.org>, <public-semweb-ui@w3.org>


Hey people. Just was talking to Paola and would like to express
my support. I'm in favour for setting up an IG. Next steps?

Cheers,
	Michael

PS: And Paola sitting right next to me says she enjoys the food and the drinks very much ;)

----------------------------------------------------------
 Michael Hausenblas, MSc.
 Institute of Information Systems & Information Management
 JOANNEUM RESEARCH Forschungsgesellschaft mbH
 Steyrergasse 17, A-8010 Graz, AUSTRIA
---------------------------------------------------------- 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-semweb-ui-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:public-semweb-ui-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of 
> paola.dimaio@gmail.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:54 PM
> To: Lloyd Rutledge
> Cc: Max Wilson; <editor@content-wire.com>; Ivan Herman; 
> emmanuelle@sidar.org; T.Heath; SW-forum Web; public-semweb-ui@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
> 
> Brilliant Lloyd thanks
> I will arrive late afternoon, around 7, could not find 
> another flight so please take notes and keep us all posted 
> about the tutorial, will catch up in the evening or on 
> arrival If there is a post tutorial event/get together, 
> please drop me an email here and I ll join you thanks PDM
> 
> On 11/10/07, Lloyd Rutledge <Lloyd.Rutledge@cwi.nl> wrote:
> > Another gathering point for this discussion could be the at 
> or aronnd 
> > the tutorial tomorrow (Sunday) on "User Centered Design for 
> the Semantic Web"
> > <http://www.dfki.de/~jameson/iswc07-tutorial/>.
> >
> > -Lloyd
> >
> > Max Wilson wrote:
> > > This swuiwiki.webscience.org, which is a great place to 
> output any 
> > > user based BOF discussion at ISWC this year, has a managed editor 
> > > list but is free to view by anyone. Contact details for 
> getting an 
> > > editor account are on the front page. Roberto, and now 
> Paola, along 
> > > with many some now have accounts.
> > >
> > > Max Wilson
> > >
> > > On 10 Nov 2007, at 09:51, <editor@content-wire.com 
> > > <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> <editor@content-wire.com 
> > > <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Ivan and all
> > >> me too leaving soon and still working on my reservations, 
> > >> shutingdown in a few minutes...
> > >>
> > >> Preliminary list of issues on the fly:
> > >>
> > >> 1. New semantic web tools are being released (primarily 
> RDF based 
> > >> but Ontology editors and othe semantic technologiesr  too) that 
> > >> look as if they are promising and useful  but little or no 
> > >> 'usability good practices' is in place to make such applications 
> > >> useful to those who have never seen one before  (ie  the 
> majority 
> > >> of the intended users)
> > >>
> > >> People (non developers) dont know
> > >> a) what to do with theb
> > >> b) how to do it
> > >>
> > >> 2. you can look at all the usability issues that once 
> existed about 
> > >> web 1.0, great advances have been made there in term of internet 
> > >> usability/accessibility, so that now even  grandparents 
> can manage 
> > >> to check emails without prior knowledge - we are in a 
> similar phase 
> > >> with semantic web applications, we (non developers, otherwise 
> > >> intelligent - users with different operational business 
> and other 
> > >> IT background not RDF) need/want to learn how to use 
> them and give 
> > >> feedback to developers, but they cant. They also feel a little 
> > >> helpless and stupid in the process, typical symptoms of poor 
> > >> usability
> > >>
> > >> Semantic technologies are now designed to be used by specialists 
> > >> (understandable as these are mostly alpha/beta, but as 
> they become 
> > >> more and more pervasive, also their usability must increase)
> > >>
> > >> 3. Genral lack of guidelines, how to's and comprehensive list of 
> > >> tutorials and support for people who would like to use 
> the things, 
> > >> as well as for developers who dont know what seem to understand 
> > >> what the issues are. Sometimes semantic web tools appear 
> mysterious 
> > >> in appearance and functionality to the uninitated.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think in the BOF we could aim to expand the above list 
> of 'issues'
> > >> with inputs from different viewpoints, identify what is 
> the cause 
> > >> of lack of usability, discuss possible initiatives that could 
> > >> increase usability, including possibly some futuristic web based 
> > >> application/service to collect all the user comments 
> from semantic 
> > >> test environments and gather them in a repository that could be 
> > >> used to develop tutorials (support the users) as well as 
> guidelines 
> > >> (help the developers develop more friendly tools following 
> > >> appropriate guidelines). Anything else that interested 
> contributors 
> > >> feel should be added/discussed
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Wiki
> > >>
> > >> I tried to log into Roberto's suggested wiki, but cannot 
> creat an 
> > >> account (the option login/create account only leads to a login 
> > >> screen, not a create account one) I have already written 
> to Robert 
> > >> about it
> > >>
> > >> Could not find conference wiki
> > >>
> > >> Any wiki where I can write to would be good at stage, if you can 
> > >> set one up quickly on the way to the airport and post 
> the contents 
> > >> of this message, if we dont hear from Roberto otherwise, 
> would be 
> > >> fine for me
> > >>
> > >> Thanks Ivan and all
> > >> Please note that your reply if you dont cc my gmail
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> look forward
> > >>
> > >> PDM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org 
> > >> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>>
> > >> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>
> > >> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org 
> <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; "'T.Heath'"
> > >> <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; 
> "'SW-forum Web'"
> > >> <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
> > >> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 3:29 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Setting up a wiki page on ESW is not a problem; but Roberto 
> > >> referred to an existing page already. Whichever people 
> feel is better.
> > >>
> > >> I would still like to understand the issues first.
> > >>
> > >> Is there some sort of a wiki or other option set up for ISWC 
> > >> participants? It would be a good place to organize such ad hoc 
> > >> get-togethers... I have tried to find at the ISWC page, but have 
> > >> not found any.
> > >>
> > >> Ivan
> > >>
> > >> P.S. Leaving for Korea in about 5 hours...
> > >>
> > >> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote:
> > >>> Dear Ivan and all
> > >>>
> > >>> thanks for the interest in this issue it will be good to meet
> > >>>
> > >>> It looks like from the responses so far that we have some 
> > >>> momentum, and considering I cannot quite help with the 
> debugging 
> > >>> of the applications just as yet , I ll be happy to help 
> foster a 
> > >>> plan
> > >>>
> > >>> Is there a W3C wiki page dedicated to Usability of Semantic Web 
> > >>> where I can post some notes? If not shall I open a wiki 
> elsewhere? 
> > >>> Thanks
> > >>>
> > >>> The people who have expressed explicit interest so far are 
> > >>> Emmanuelle Sidar Tom Heath  Open U Knud Hinner Deri M 
> Daquin Open 
> > >>> U Hugh Glaser Roberto Garcia J Chetwynd Richard Cygniak Ivan 
> > >>> Herman (update this list if I missed anyone) Adrian Walker sent 
> > >>> some notes (havent read yet) [1] 
> > >>> 
> www.reengineeringllc.com/Internet_Business_Logic_e-Government_Pres
> > >>> entation.pdf
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Except for those who are not in Busan, whom we shall 
> keep posted 
> > >>> of any discussions and outcomes on list,  I look forward to be 
> > >>> meeting everybody in the next few days
> > >>>
> > >>> Tom Heath suggests a  BOF meeting at lunch on Thursday, 
> which may 
> > >>> be fine for some but others may have flown already by then, so 
> > >>> anyone who can make it for lunch contact Tom directly to get 
> > >>> details/directions
> > >>>
> > >>> I hope that maybe an additional/alternative informal 
> get together 
> > >>> before Thursday an be arranged, for those who still 
> have a spare 
> > >>> slot and may have left by Thursday -  email your availability 
> > >>> and/or just catch me ( I ll try to wear a tshirt that says 
> > >>> SEMANTIC USABILITY  if I can get it printed on the fly)
> > >>>
> > >>> i am best contacted via  paola.dimaio ATDONOTSPAMMEANYMORE 
> > >>> gmail.com, but cannot post to list from there
> > >>>
> > >>> With the OK of the organisers, I will put up a notice on the 
> > >>> conference message board about details
> > >>>
> > >>> Look forward!
> > >>> Thanks a lot for interest
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers
> > >>> Paola Di Maio
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org 
> > >>> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>>
> > >>> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>
> > >>> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org 
> <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; "'T.Heath'"
> > >>> <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; 
> "'SW-forum Web'" 
> > >>> <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
> > >>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:01 PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I will be there. And I would like to understand the issues and 
> > >>> whether W3C is in position to do something about those.
> > >>>
> > >>> Note that W3C has been facing the issue of usability for a long 
> > >>> time (Semantic or not Semantic Web) but we could never 
> get enough 
> > >>> member enthusiasm to start something more serious in 
> the area.... 
> > >>> (except for the web accessibility area which probably 
> includes a 
> > >>> subset of the general usability issues).
> > >>>
> > >>> Ivan
> > >>>
> > >>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think Tom and I and others may meet in Busan next 
> week, this is 
> > >>>> something I ll put in my agenda too to instigate about. Anyone 
> > >>>> else on this list is going to be in Busan, and has an 
> interest in 
> > >>>> Usability and Accessibility and related issues, please mail me 
> > >>>> online and I ll post details of any time/place 
> suggested for an 
> > >>>> informal get together to scheme something up cheers 
> Paola Di Maio 
> > >>>> www.mfu.ac.th
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emmanuelle 
> Gutiérrez y Restrepo"
> > >>>> <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>
> > >>>> To: "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk 
> <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; 
> > >>>> <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>;
> > >>>> "'SW-forum Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org 
> > >>>> <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:01 AM
> > >>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Tom and all,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes, you are right, and it has not been my intention, "tar you 
> > >>>> all with the same brush".
> > >>>> But I know a lot of developers of semantics 
> applications, which 
> > >>>> are nice, intelligent, and whom I greatly appreciate; 
> And yet not 
> > >>>> often worry about the accessibility of his creatures.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think that the Paola's idea can be useful. We are working in 
> > >>>> some similar, so maybe we can work on it togheter.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And we can think in another ideas. But I think that 
> the W3C has 
> > >>>> some type of responsability on it too. And I'm sure 
> that they can 
> > >>>> do something about it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> All the best,
> > >>>> Emmanuelle
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo  Fundación Sidar 
> Coordinadora 
> > >>>> del SIDAR www.sidar.org <http://www.sidar.org>
> > >>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org>
> > >>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Mensaje original-----
> > >>>> De: T.Heath [mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk] Enviado el: 
> miércoles, 
> > >>>> 07 de noviembre de 2007 16:04
> > >>>> Para: emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>; 
> > >>>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; 
> > >>>> SW-forum Web
> > >>>> Asunto: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Emmanuelle,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I understand and share your apparent frustration, but please 
> > >>>> don't "tar us all with the same brush" [1] :) There are many 
> > >>>> people working in the Semantic Web field who care deeply about 
> > >>>> understanding, and catering to, the needs of human users (yes, 
> > >>>> you and I agree, humans are the Semantic Web's ultimate target 
> > >>>> audience). Last year's SWUI workshop at ISWC [2] and 
> the next in 
> > >>>> the series [3] at CHI2008 are good indicators of this 
> commitment.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sadly, and despite this, the human agenda doesn't 
> always get the 
> > >>>> recognition it deserves in the community. Some additional 
> > >>>> initiatives in this area would be a great idea I think :)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1] http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tar+with+the+same+brush
> > >>>> [2] http://swui.semanticweb.org/swui06/
> > >>>> [3] http://swui.semanticweb.org/SWUI2008CHI/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: semantic-web-request@w3.org 
> > >>>> <mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org> on behalf of Emmanuelle
> > >>>> Gutiérrez y
> > >>>> Restrepo
> > >>>> Sent: Wed 07/11/2007 12:27 PM
> > >>>> To: editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; 
> > >>>> 'SW-forum Web'
> > >>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi "PDM",
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I agree with you. There are a lot of work around the "semantic 
> > >>>> web" and maybe is a good work for the "machines". But I can't 
> > >>>> understand why the people working on it don't care about 
> > >>>> accessibility. The semantic web is nothing if can't be 
> useful for the humans.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Accessibility means usability for all. So, I think 
> that complain 
> > >>>> with the WCAG must be *prerequisite* for each semantic web 
> > >>>> application.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best regards,
> > >>>> Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo         Fundación Sidar
> > >>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR                  www.sidar.org
> > >>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org>
> > >>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>  _____
> > >>>>
> > >>>> De: semantic-web-request@w3.org 
> > >>>> [mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org] En nombre de 
> > >>>> editor@content-wire.com 
> <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> Enviado 
> > >>>> el: miércoles, 07 de noviembre de
> > >>>> 2007 11:40
> > >>>> Para: SW-forum Web
> > >>>> Asunto: User testing for semantic applicatons
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I must say something
> > >>>> There are a lot of cool applications coming up, I try most of 
> > >>>> them , but they are new I am not sure what to expect 
> exactly. What should it do?
> > >>>> How do
> > >>>> I know if there is an error, or if this is really the way it 
> > >>>> should look?
> > >>>> Little documentation, usability almost not taken into 
> account etc.
> > >>>> Also I dont have all day, just a few minutes, a few 
> clicks, then 
> > >>>> I lose interest, must move on
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Now, the linked data below is quite straighforward intuitive 
> > >>>> interface (not bad in fact) although a few more 
> explanations and 
> > >>>> how to's would be good. I also got an error when I tried it 
> > >>>> (different from the error below) not sure what to do next
> > >>>>
> > >>>> All this to suggest  a forum is created to handle usability of 
> > >>>> semantic applications, where we 'users' can report our 
> > >>>> experiences and get some help in running/understanding the 
> > >>>> stuffs. I have a lot of feedback and user tests 
> already running 
> > >>>> on semantic applications, may be most productive if handled 
> > >>>> collectively and shared, rather than just sent to the 
> developers 
> > >>>> who are likely not to understand my problem anyway (we seem to 
> > >>>> speak different
> > >>>> languages)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> thoughts?
> > >>>> cheers
> > >>>> PDM
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>> From: Tim Berners-Lee <mailto:timbl@w3.org>
> > >>>> To: Hugh Glaser <mailto:hg@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
> > >>>> Cc: Linking Open Data 
> <mailto:linking-open-data@simile.mit.edu>  
> > >>>> ; SW-forum Web <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>  ; Ian  
> > >>>> <mailto:icm@ecs.soton.ac.uk> Millard
> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:15 AM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: Linked Data available
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Umm ,,, in
> > >>>> 
> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d0
> > >>>> 4733ea
> > >>>> I
> > >>>> get
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Request for
> > >>>> 
> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d0
> > >>>> 4733eaabout
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> under the hood
> > >>>> Label Request for
> > >>>> 
> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d0
> > >>>> 4733ea
> > >>>> Status 200
> > >>>> StatusText OK
> > >>>> Accept-ranges bytes
> > >>>> Connection close
> > >>>> Content-length 2005
> > >>>> Content type text/xml
> > >>>> Date Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:37 GMT Etag 
> > >>>> "7785ba-7d5-43e4bd0f48e00"
> > >>>> Last-modified Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:36 GMT Server 
> Apache/2.0.52 
> > >>>> (Red
> > >>>> Hat)
> > >>>> Handler opt off expandfetchSourceFetcher.XMLHandler
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Something funny about the XML:  Line 2: doctype broken.  Shoud 
> > >>>> not be a doctype.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <!DOCTYPE rdf:RDF [
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY rdf 
> 'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY rdfs 'http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY owl 'http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY akt 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/portal#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY akts 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/support#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY extn 
> 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/extension#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY wiki 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/wiki/'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY resist
> > >>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resist#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY resex
> > >>>> 
> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resilience-mechanisms#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY courseware
> > >>>> 'http://www.resist-noe.org/ontology/courseware#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY dc 'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY dct 'http://purl.org/dc/terms/'> ]> <rdf:RDF
> > >>>>        xmlns:rdf="&rdf;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:rdfs="&rdfs;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:owl="&owl;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:akt="&akt;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:akts="&akts;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:extn="&extn;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:wiki="&wiki;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:resist="&resist;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:resex="&resex;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:courseware="&courseware;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:dc="&dc;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:dct="&dct;"
> > >>>>        >
> > >>>>        <owl:Ontology rdf:about="">
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [....]
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> > >> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ PGP Key: 
> > >> http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> > >> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------
> > > n - max wilson
> > > e - mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk> w - 
> > > www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r>
> > > t - +44 (0) 2380 598367
> > > ----------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
> Paola Di Maio
> School of IT
> www.mfu.ac.th
> *********************************************
> 
Received on Tuesday, 13 November 2007 10:43:03 GMT

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