14 Sep 2010


See also: IRC log


+1.703.312.aaaa, Leora, DaveReynolds, Harold, +, csma, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, +1.425.844.aacc, AdrianP
MikeDean, GaryHallmark
Christian de Sainte Marie
Dave Reynolds, Harold Boley


<csma> item+ Admin

<csma> agendum+ Admin

<csma> agendum+ Liaisons

<csma> agendum+ Actions review

<csma> agendum+ RIF Primer

<csma> agendum+ RIF-XML data

<csma> agendum+ RIF in RDF

<csma> agendum+ UCR

<csma> agendum+ Test Cases

<csma> agendum+ AOB (next meeting: 21 Sept?)

<AxelPolleres> I am sorry, but I can't attend today... as for RIF in RDF, I have drafted some text on the semantics of RIF-in-RDF which works for me: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_In_RDF

<AxelPolleres> sections 7 and 8

<csma> Hi Axel,

<csma> Can you send that text to the public mailing list, please?

<AxelPolleres> I see that Dave sent a review already.

<AxelPolleres> I have to look into this.

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/mid/1284405398.2075.0.camel@dave-desktop

<csma> Problems with Zakim France number

<csma> :-(

<csma> Zakim GB does not seem to work, either :-(

<Leora> is anyone talking? I can't hear a thing.

<StellaMitchell> I hear typing

<Leora> Oh, that's probably me you hear.

<Leora> I can't figure out how to mute.

<Leora> okay, figured it out. ;)

<Leora> Stella, do you still hear me typing?

<AxelPolleres> Dave, basically, I still think/hope that the extraction of encoded rulesets is possible, essentially, it seems that you can extract everything from "below" a focus-node that has some RIF properties.

<csma> Scribe: Dave Reynolds

<csma> scribenick: DaveReynolds

Axel - disagree but can't scribe and discuss at same time :)

<AxelPolleres> likely though, we'd need to define what is a well-formed RIF/RDF document, that allows such exttraction... ok, let's take this to email

<csma> Scribe: Harold Boley

<Leora> csma, did you ask me something?

<Leora> I couldn't hear

<csma> Scribenick: Harold

<Leora> I guess not.

<csma> next item

<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/att-0001/24-rif-minutes.html

<csma> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of Aug 24 telecon

<StellaMitchell> +1

<csma> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of Aug 24 telecon

<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/att-0009/rif-mins-7-Sept-2010.html

<csma> PROPOSED: Approve the minutes of Sept 7 telecon

<StellaMitchell> +1

<Leora> +1

<csma> RESOLVED: Approve the minutes of Sept 7 telecon

<csma> next item

<csma> next item

<csma> next item

<StellaMitchell> close action-1050

<trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel

<csma> close ACTION-1050

<trackbot> ACTION-1050 Remove RIF syntax from UCR closed

<StellaMitchell> close action-1049

<trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel

<csma> next item

Leora: Ready for review.
... Last thing is compatibility section: RDF, OWL 2.

<ChrisW> I just finished updating the Test Cases section of PRimer

Christian: Should we add compatibility with XML? As section 7.3?

Leora: I could do it.

<Leora> I can do a short paragraph on compatibility with XML.

<Leora> I haven't yet read your document, Christian.

<Leora> So honestly, this would be a short, brief paragraph.

<Leora> If there is no example, it would be helpful to get an example.

Christian: Reviewers are Gary and Sandro.
... Will ask Gary and Sandro to read it by next week.

<StellaMitchell> s/brief document/brief paragraph/

<csma> ACTION: csma to send email to Gary and sandro re reviewing Primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1052 - Send email to Gary and sandro re reviewing Primer [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-09-21].

<csma> next ietm

<csma> next item

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/XML-Data_alt

Christian: Based on discussion last week, redrafted the document, keeping the semantics but going back to XPath syntax.
... Much shortened the document.
... Not quite finished.
... Semantics defined for any XPath expression.
... Sometimes only small subset used.

<Leora> Okay - -- so I should read the doc linked above?

Christian: Yes.

<Leora> Christian, sorry --- I just didn't really hear you. Phone is fuzzy.

Christian: Will add appendices.
... Will ask Michael if he can review it.

Dave: References to XPath specs might be better than copying snippets.
... Otherwise there may be a maintenance issue.

Christian: Copies are just non-normative.

Dave: If not too many, then that's fair.

Christian: Just terms that are used in several places such as "What is a sequence?".

Sandro: How does the XML render in Presentation Syntax?

<csma> <Const type=...>child::schema-element(ex:Account)</Const>

<csma> "ex:Account"

<csma> ?x["child::schema-element(ex:Account)"->value]

***Lengthy Christian/Sandro discussion about PS/XML syntaxes***

<csma> For all the element nodes e ∈ E, Itruth(Iframe(IDM(e))(IC("expr"^^xs:string), RIFValue(e, expr))) = t (true)

<sandro> proposed test case: someone assert some frames with xpath-syntax slot names.

<csma> next item

Christian/Sandro: Have two reviews.

Dave: Small bug in the table.

<sandro> DaveReynolds: small bug in table; main issue is with usedWithProfile -- defn in there requires you to be able to subtract a rif ruleset out of an RDF graph

Dave: Substantial comments: Semantics currently requires to 'subtract' rule sets.

<sandro> DaveReynolds: an algo for doing that subtraction isn't provided, and I don't think it's possible.

<csma> Axel, are you here?

Dave: Suggest to change semantics to omit subtraction.

Sandro: Axel was interested in subtraction, having a use case for it.
... Avoid 'pollution' by unnecessary rules.
... But one could leave them, just querying the rest.

Dave: Transform rules with rules. Use secure subtraction.

Sandro: Dave's proposal is good.

<sandro> sandro: I think DaveReynolds's proposal to just remove the usedWithProfile triple is good.

<ChrisW> Leora, I don't think the using dataypes example works

Sandro: Leora asks for more examples.
... Will do that, too, once back from vacation.

<ChrisW> in particular the "at least 5 years ago" constraint looks to me like "after the year 5"

Leora: Examples would help with how mapping is done and more clear.

<Leora> very likely, Chris.

Sandro: Currently one big example (in appendix).

<Leora> Chris, I actually had a question about the representation of years.

Sandro: The document was not meant to be terribly tutorial.

<ChrisW> ok

Leora: Little more than Hello World example in intro need still to be done.

<Leora> Chris, let me revisit the examples.

<ChrisW> next item

<Leora> And apologies for talking about both the primer and rif in rdf

<Leora> at the same time

Chris: Document is good now.

Leora: UC 4.4

***Lengthy Chris/Leora discussion about modal logic***

<AdrianP> unfortunately I have bad WLAN quality

Chris: Swap two sections (4 and 5), so shorter one goes earlier.

<ChrisW> FORALL ?x AND (encoding(?x) believes(Leora,ugly(?x)))

Leora: Will fix things in next 24 hours.

<Leora> Harold, that was a lengthy discussion about to what extent sentences that would ordinarily be represented in modal logic, or at least, directly in fol using possible-worlds semantics

<Leora> but which could possibly be represented, in a kludgey way in BLD.

<ChrisW> next item

<Leora> Chris, your FOL formula is false.

<Leora> Not to mention that it mentions belief, explicitly!

Chris: Reviewed UCR, need one more.

<StellaMitchell> I can review UCR

<ChrisW> ACTION: Stella to review UCR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1053 - Review UCR [on Stella Mitchell - due 2010-09-21].

<StellaMitchell> one more left to approve

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modeling_Brain_Anatomy

<ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve Modeling Brain Anatomy

<AdrianP> +1 for the test case

<ChrisW> +1

<DaveReynolds> +1

<Leora> +1

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve Modeling Brain Anatomy

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css

<ChrisW> meet again in 1 week

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: csma to send email to Gary and sandro re reviewing Primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Stella to review UCR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2010/09/14 16:19:34 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/short, brief document/short, brief paragraph/
FAILED: s/brief document/brief paragraph/
Succeeded: s/What/How/
Succeeded: s/live/leave/
Succeeded: s/two sections/two sections (4 and 5)/
Found Scribe: Dave Reynolds
Found ScribeNick: DaveReynolds
Found Scribe: Harold Boley
Found ScribeNick: Harold
Scribes: Dave Reynolds, Harold Boley
ScribeNicks: DaveReynolds, Harold

WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found.

Default Present: +1.703.312.aaaa, Leora, DaveReynolds, Harold, +, csma, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, +1.425.844.aacc, AdrianP
Present: +1.703.312.aaaa Leora DaveReynolds Harold + csma StellaMitchell ChrisW +1.425.844.aacc AdrianP
Regrets: MikeDean GaryHallmark

WARNING: No meeting title found!
You should specify the meeting title like this:
<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/0010.html
Got date from IRC log name: 14 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: csma stella

WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found!  
Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>.

Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of 
new discussion topics or agenda items, such as:
<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]