See also: IRC log
<csma> agendum admin
<csma> Hello CorentinF! Who are you?
<csma> Who are you?
<CorentinF> i'm a trainee at inria, i work on a rif-bld implementation
<csma> Are you a member of the WG?
<CorentinF> should i leave?
<csma> Well, telecons are for WG members only. But if you can tell me a little bit more about your implementation, we will have that on the record...
<csma> And, then, you can leave :-)
<csma> What is your time frame?
<csma> For implementation, I mean
<csma> Corentin, what kind of implementation are developing?
<csma> Translating BLD to/from what language?
<csma> What is your target date for a working prototype?
<csma> scribenick: AdrianP
<CorentinF> well for now it's a very experimental work, meant to get an interperter for presentation syntax
<csma> You don't use the XML syntax?
<AdrianP>CorentinF you might be interested in this demo of the RuleML-2008 Rules Challenge by IBM implementing RIF BLD
<AdrianP>At RuleML-2008 there were also further demos and presentations about RIF
<CorentinF> we planned to make an xml concrete parser as well, but as it's to be integrated with a research project software, the "interchange" aspect is not really critical
<csma> Great (although only the XML syntax is normative, of course)
<csma> Corentin, can you sent a comment to the public comment list, so that we have your email address. And any comments you have about BLD would be great, too
<csma> the public comment address is: email@example.com
<csma> Corentin, you will have to leave, now.
<csma> We will keep in contact via the mailing list
<csma> next item
<csma> PROPOSED: accept minutes of telecon July 7
<csma> RESOLVED: accept minutes of telecon July 7
resolved minutes accepted
csma: next telecon to review the comments?
<Gary> I will be unable to attend on Aug 4
I could attend first week of August
Harold: Chris mentioned that we might need a reasonable number of comments
I will be travelling next week, but will try to call in
csma: next telecon 28th of July
<csma> Sandro, will you join the telecon?
<csma> next item
<sandro> Sorry, csma, no.
<sandro> (I hope you saw my e-mail about this.)
<csma> Sandro, is there any condition re amount or quality of public comments for moving to CR?
<sandro> There is no defined line. We just have to make the case that there's been wide public review.
<csma> Sandro, as OWL liaison, could you push them to comment?
<sandro> It MAY be enough to have gotten the word out and be ignored. It would be much better to have simple messages along the lines of "this looks okay."
<sandro> ACTION: sandro to get an OWL-WG comment on RIF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-892 - Get an OWL-WG comment on RIF [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-28].
Adrian: W3c HCLS BIORDF will take a look for a micro array experiemts use case
<csma> next item
action 889 continued
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 889
action 885 closed
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 885
<trackbot> ACTION-885 Answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL closed
<trackbot> ACTION-884 Answer FAQ 3.6 closed
<trackbot> ACTION-881 Contact Aberdeen colleagues. closed
<trackbot> ACTION-876 Contact Said Tabet. closed
<trackbot> ACTION-874 Contact Guido Governatori. closed
<trackbot> ACTION-872 Contact Igor Mozetic. closed
<trackbot> ACTION-869 Contact Giorgos closed
<trackbot> ACTION-868 Contact Michael Sintek closed
<trackbot> ACTION-867 Contact Luis Polo. closed
<trackbot> ACTION-866 Contact Markas? closed
<trackbot> ACTION-861 Announce inside oracle, drules, jess closed
<trackbot> ACTION-860 Announce to hp internal and jena-dev closed
<trackbot> ACTION-856 Announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB closed
<trackbot> ACTION-853 Update XML syntax for Core and BLD to use xml:lang attribute for consts closed
<trackbot> ACTION-852 Review Multiple* test cases closed
action-852 pending review
action-845 pending review
<trackbot> ACTION-842 Provide some feedback on new safeness by tomorrow closed
<trackbot> ACTION-784 Talk to Mark Proctor about RIF implementation closed
<trackbot> ACTION-782 Talk to ontoprise about RIF implementation & timeframe closed
<trackbot> ACTION-780 Refactor BLD schema to import Core (help from cke) closed
<csma> next item
<Harold> We had two comments from David Mott:
Harold: two comments by IBM
... we should have a Wiki page where we collect all public comments
<Harold> Another comment from Nick Bassiliades, Greece, is pending: he could not yet send it for list-technical reasons.
csma: wheneve we here about RIF
implementations we should ask people to send a comment
... comment like I read the spec, is better than no comment
... encourage all contacts to send comments
... should start listing implementation plans
Harold: Alexander Riazanov plans to implement BLD in his Vampire Theorem Proofer
<DaveReynolds> That one isn't empty
action, csma change implementation page
<Harold> The current RIF Implementation plans table is outdated.
<scribe> ACTION: csma to change implementation page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-893 - Change implementation page [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-28].
<Harold> I came up with this:
<Harold> Possible RIF Implementations
<Harold> (probably not TextGarden from above Implementation_plans):
<Harold> dlvhex: Core (see above Implementation_plans)
<Harold> Flora-2: BLD (Michael Kifer et al.)
<Harold> Oracle: PRD (Gary Hallmark et al.)
<Harold> IBM/ILOG: PRD (CSMA et al.)
<Harold> W3C: Core (translator to N3, Sandro Hawke)
<Harold> RuleML Inc: BLD (translator to Sigma Kee Vampire, Alexandre Riazanov)
<Harold> FU Berlin: PRD (translator to Prova / Reaction RuleML, Adrian Paschke et al.)
<Harold> NRC: Core (translator to OO jDREW / Datalog RuleML, Harold Boley et al.)
csma: can we put it on the Wiki page
<scribe> ACTION: csma add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-894 - Add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations) [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-28].
<Harold> I don't know if possible Ontoprise and Flora-2 implementations might be related.
csma: did not get feedback from Ontoprise yet
<Harold> Mark Proctor's DROOLS work should be highly relevant for PRD.
Dave: Pascal and Markus are currently not able to do RIF implementations due to lack of resources
<csma> CTIC interested in trying a PRD implementation for SPARQL + construct
<csma> CTIC also interested in developed a RIF editor
<csma> Adrian possibly developing an implementation for Tibco
Adrian: translation to
... academic collaboration project with TIBCO, working on a translator
Gary: work on a PRD implementation
csma: heared that ontoprise and Vienna are working on a new dialect using FLD
Harold: non-monotonic dialect or just using FLD?
csma: a new dialect using
... CoronteF at INRIA working on a BLD implementation
Harold: wonder if Stella uses one of the tools from Hasan or Sandro
Stella: yes, I use the tool from Hasan
Harold: can everyone download it
Stella: can look-up the link
<Harold> Hassan could be asked if we can publicly point to his tool
Harold: meant that it can count a first implementation
<Harold> as a first implementation.
<Harold> (if only the syntax part, but it already helped Stella et. al a lot.)
csma: you mentioned an IBM demo
Adrian: yes, that was demo given
last year at the Rules Challenge at RuleML-2008
... need to see if it can count as a BLD implementation
I will ask her if she will also send comments about RIF
<csma> next item
<scribe> ACTION: AdrianP ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - AdrianP
<scribe> ACTION: Adrian ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-895 - Ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-07-28].
csma: how do we proceed for FAQ; just approve them?
Harold: it is an inoffical
... so enough to just approve them
... under 3.5. linked "defines" is hard to spot, should be made more explicit
csma: there is a commercial
implementation by Ontoprise
... Ontobroker supports RIF
... should publish FAQ as early as possible
... maybe should take it as is and publish even without all quesions answered
Harold: could everyone complete the FAQ questions
Stella: 4.4 wasn't sure about it
csma: Dave suggestion to review
it later is good
... 4.4. could be "not yet"
<DaveReynolds> I've made the link to SWC more explicit in FAQ 3.5
<csma> next item
<sandro> the FAQ is already published.
<csma> Sandro, it is not referenced from the WG front page
<sandro> yes it is.
<DaveReynolds> Yes it is right at the top
<Harold> FAQ is published but it says: "This is an unofficial draft FAQ"
csma: shall we ask someone from the working group to review it
Sandro: sounds good
csma: added editors notes
... looked at Xpath 2.0 - reworked document relates to more general elements in the XML stack
Sandro: we have DTB built-ins, we could have standard built-ins for XML, i.e. Xpath built-ins
csma: should be based on the XML data model
<csma> next item
Stella: could nothing to be
concluded from the test cases?
... csma is saying wording is similar to be similar to ArbitraryEntailment
... ArbitraryEntailment test case
Sandro: malformed lists are structures too
<sandro> "Malformed lists are structures, too. There's nothing illogical about them."
<Harold> A few months ago, "malformed lists" were renamed into "general open lists".
Sandro: is a list with a tail which is not a list
Harold: part 4
<Harold> List terms.
<StellaMitchell> s/could nothing be conclused from the test cases/is there anything that is entailed by the premise in this test case/
<Harold> Such general open lists correspond to Lisp's dotted lists [Steele90].
<StellaMitchell> s/could nothing be concluded from the test cases/is there anything that is entailed by the premise in this test case/
Stella: maybe a longer description helps to make it more clear
csma: if there is not a positive
entailment it means there is a contradiction
... should at least entail the premise
<sandro> description: "The tail of a list in BLD doesn't have to be a list. It can be like a LISP dotted pair; it's just another kind of structure."
Gary: think the premise is entailed
<sandro> if List ( ?x | ?y ) and is-string(?y) then is-funky-structure(?x)
Harold: problem is when there is a variable we cannot control if it is bound to a list or another term
<sandro> csma: if List ( ?x | ?y ) and is-list ?y then is-list List( ?x | ?y )
csma: shall we change description
of test case?
... test says it is not a syntax error if the tail is not a lists
Sandro: premise is in fact a list, according to the definition of BLD
<sandro> although as I recall from LISP it's called a "dotted pair".
<Harold> Lisp terminology: dotted pair: (a . b) -- dotted list: (a b c . d)
<Harold> However, (a b c . d) is just 'presentation syntax' for nested dotted pairs (a . (b . (c . d)))
<csma> PROPOSED: extend 10 mn to conclude on MalformedLists
<DaveReynolds> Ok to extend
<csma> RESOLVED: extend 10 mn to conclude on MalformedLists
<Harold> "Note that the last condition above restricts Itail only when its last argument is in Dlist. If the last argument of Itail is not in Dlist, then the list is a general open one and there are no restrictions on the value of Itail except that it must be in Dind. "
<Harold> 5. Ilist and Itail are used to interpret lists
Sandro: premise does not entail
... need to ask Jos
<sandro> ACTION: sandro to ask Jos about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-896 - Ask Jos about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-28].
Adrian: plan to have a W3C RIF workshop at RuleML-2009 (http://2009.ruleml.org) with a tutorial about RIF PRD by Christian and demonstration of RIF implementations.
Adrian: and Sandro will give a keynote about RIF at RuleML-2009
Adrian: intention is to reach out to the business rules community and spread the word about the new W3C RIF standard
Adrian: will send further info to the working group