W3C

- DRAFT -

RIF Telecon 7-Jul-09

07 Jul 2009

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.802.264.aaaa, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma
Regrets
JosDeBruijn, AdrianPaschke, PaulVincent
Chair
Chris Welty
Scribe
Harold

Contents


 

 

RIF Telecon 7 July, Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0014.html

Admin

<ChrisW> Scribe: Harold

Liason

Action review

Chris: Soon there will be a Call for Implementations. Most important thing.
... Start influencing people now to implement.

<ChrisW> action-847: done

<trackbot> ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases notes added

<ChrisW> action-847: closed

<trackbot> ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases notes added

<trackbot> If you meant to close ACTION-847, please use 'close ACTION-847'

<ChrisW> close action-847

<trackbot> ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases closed

close action-846

close action-846

<trackbot> ACTION-846 Review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases closed

Last Call

Chris: Need publicity.

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity

Chris: Above wiki page is from previous LC.

<ChrisW> ACTION: Mike_Dean to announce to old joint committee mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike_Dean

<ChrisW> ACTION: Chris to announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-855 - Announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: harold to announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-856 - Announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: mkifer to announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-857 - Announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Leora to announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-858 - Announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: sandro to annoucne to swi-prolog [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-859 - Annoucne to swi-prolog [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

http://decentralyze.com/2009/06/19/notes-from-semtech2009/

<ChrisW> ACTION: Dave to announce to hp internal and jena-dev [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-860 - Announce to hp internal and jena-dev [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: gary to announce inside oracle, drules, jess [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-861 - Announce inside oracle, drules, jess [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-07-14].

Alexandre Riazanov: http://www.freewebs.com/riazanov/

Chris: Flora-2 test case where equality is incomplete?

<ChrisW> ACTION: mkifer to devise a "deep" equality test case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-862 - Devise a "deep" equality test case [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-07-14].

Michael: Subsitutivity for functions on 2nd or 3rd level.

Dave: We still have an option to implement Core.
... Not guaranteed at the moment.

Sandro: Trying a Core implementation and maybe beyond.

Gary: Year-old prototype for PRD; will bring that translator from/to Oracle Business Rules up to date.

Mike: As part of Vulcan work on Silk, will do BLD and (hyper-)non-mon extensions.
... Translators between Silk and BLD.

Sandro: How can we bring other rules people (who were not active in RIF) into RIF?
... Vendors? Motivational trade-offs?
... Why interested (or not)?

Chris: What about a press release, an introductory letter?

Sandro: When going to CR, there will be official Call for Implementations.
... Meanwhile think about RIF as being almost done: Hey, have a look at it.

Chris: Mailing lists etc.

Sandro: Ironically, first target would be RIF membership list, but it's not easy to mail there.

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=38457&order=org

<ChrisW> ACTION: sandro to contact Jos de Roo [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-863 - Contact Jos de Roo [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) to Sandro [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Contact

<scribe> ACTION: Sandro to Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-864 - Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to contact Minsu Cheng [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-865 - Contact Minsu Cheng [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Dave to contact Markas? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action14]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-866 - Contact Markas? [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to contact Luis Polo. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action15]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-867 - Contact Luis Polo. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Harold to contact Michael Sintek [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action16]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-868 - Contact Michael Sintek [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Dave to contact Giorgos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action17]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-869 - Contact Giorgos [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Sandro to contact MOC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action18]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-870 - Contact MOC [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to contact NCSR. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action19]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-871 - Contact NCSR. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Harold to contact Igor Mozetic. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action20]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-872 - Contact Igor Mozetic. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to contact Leo Obrst. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action21]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-873 - Contact Leo Obrst. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Harold to contact Guido Governatori. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action22]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-874 - Contact Guido Governatori. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Leora to contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action23]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-875 - Contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Harold to contact Said Tabet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action24]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-876 - Contact Said Tabet. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to contact William Andersen. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action25]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-877 - Contact William Andersen. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to contact Elisa Kendall. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action26]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-878 - Contact Elisa Kendall. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Mike to contact SRI. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action27]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-879 - Contact SRI. [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Mike to contact David Jones (Boeing). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action28]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-880 - Contact David Jones (Boeing). [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Dave to contact Aberdeen colleagues. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action29]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-881 - Contact Aberdeen colleagues. [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to contact University of Innsbruck. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action30]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-882 - Contact University of Innsbruck. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2004/12/rules-ws/registered

Sandro: Attendee list of the above Workshop could be used, too.
... Contact informed by attendees' Position Papers.

Chris: More ideas, especially companies?
... Production rules vendors?

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FAQ

Chris: Need reviews of the FAQ by all.
... Some questions have no answers yet.

<ChrisW> ACTION: mike to answer FAQ 3.7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action31]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-883 - Answer FAQ 3.7 [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: harold to answer FAQ 3.6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action32]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-884 - Answer FAQ 3.6 [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

Mike: Take RIF and SWRL.

Dave: Take RDF.

<ChrisW> ACTION: dave to answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action33]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-885 - Answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

<csma> Chris, I see that you have an action to contact Luis-Polo: I will meet him tomorrow, so I can take the action

<ChrisW> ACTION: stella to answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action34]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-886 - Answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: leora to answer FAQ 4.2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action35]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-887 - Answer FAQ 4.2 [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: gary to answer FAQ 4.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action36]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-888 - Answer FAQ 4.3 [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-07-14].

<ChrisW> ACTION: stella to answer FAQ 4.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action37]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-889 - Answer FAQ 4.1 [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-07-14].

<csma> yes

<ChrisW> ACTION: csma to answer FAQ 3.8 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action38]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-890 - Answer FAQ 3.8 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-14].

Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant

RIF Core document

--for legal reasons we should not confine it to Core-->

Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant

RIF document

<sandro> "Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant RIF Core document, may require arbitrarily great CPU and memory resources."

<sandro> ACTION: sandro to post media-type registration to IETF lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action39]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-891 - Post media-type registration to IETF lists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

Test Cases

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership

Dialect BLD

-->

Dialect Core

This test cases defines a rule that represents an "isFatherOf" relation between male family members. It uses RIF class memberships to test if a family member is of the class "Male" .

-->

This test cases defines rules that represents an "isFatherOf" relation as a male parent of a son or daughter. It uses RIF class memberships to test if a parent is in the class "Male".

Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isSonOf(?X ?Y) ?X#fam:Male ?Y#fam:Male )

)

-->

Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isSonOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male )

)

Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isDaughterOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male )

)

Just merge to:

Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isChildOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male ) )

<csma> that's why # is allowed in a conclusion only for New frame objects, in PRD

Gary: We knew that membership facts are not allowed in Core and PRD when we designed them.

<Gary> I argued that membership facts but not conclusions be allowed...

PROPOSED: Approve testcase class membership?

<sandro> PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership

<Gary> +1

APPROVED: Approve testcase class approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership

<sandro> RESOLVED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

Description Demonstrates how to use frame representation in RIF BLD.

-->

Description Demonstrates how to use frame representation in RIF-Core.

ex: customer

--everywhere-->

ex: customer0017

Leora: Changing ex:customer to ex:customer0017 would affect many other examples Adrian has done (eg Assert and Retract).

Sandro: Not sure about the ?Name variable.
... Facts and conclusions can remain the same.
... But ?Name suggests something misleading.

Chris: Right, totally useless example.

Gary: Delete, as Sandro proposed.

Chris: Rule applies only to one customer, like business was done in the old days.

<csma> Bye

Leora: Maybe Adrian meant something we are not quite getting.

Chris: Maybe because of successive changes.
... "Whatever the customer's ?Name is., ...".
... Maybe they change their ?Name often.

<sandro> PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

PROPOSED: Approve testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

<sandro> +1

+1

<DaveReynolds> +1

<Gary> +1

RESOLUTION: Approve testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

RESOLUTION: testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Chris to announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to contact Elisa Kendall. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action26]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to contact Leo Obrst. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action21]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to contact Luis Polo. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to contact Minsu Cheng [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to contact NCSR. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action19]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to contact University of Innsbruck. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action30]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to contact William Andersen. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action25]
[NEW] ACTION: Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) to Sandro [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: csma to answer FAQ 3.8 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action38]
[NEW] ACTION: Dave to announce to hp internal and jena-dev [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: dave to answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action33]
[NEW] ACTION: Dave to contact Giorgos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action17]
[NEW] ACTION: Dave to contact Markas? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: Dave to contact Aberdeen colleagues. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action29]
[NEW] ACTION: gary to announce inside oracle, drules, jess [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: gary to answer FAQ 4.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action36]
[NEW] ACTION: harold to announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: harold to answer FAQ 3.6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action32]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to contact Michael Sintek [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to contact Guido Governatori. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action22]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to contact Igor Mozetic. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action20]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to contact Said Tabet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action24]
[NEW] ACTION: Leora to announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: leora to answer FAQ 4.2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action35]
[NEW] ACTION: Leora to contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action23]
[NEW] ACTION: mike to answer FAQ 3.7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action31]
[NEW] ACTION: Mike to contact David Jones (Boeing). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action28]
[NEW] ACTION: Mike to contact SRI. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action27]
[NEW] ACTION: Mike_Dean to announce to old joint committee mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: mkifer to devise a "deep" equality test case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: mkifer to announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: sandro to annoucne to swi-prolog [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Sandro to Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: sandro to contact Jos de Roo [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: Sandro to contact MOC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action18]
[NEW] ACTION: sandro to post media-type registration to IETF lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action39]
[NEW] ACTION: stella to answer FAQ 4.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action37]
[NEW] ACTION: stella to answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html#action34]
 
[End of minutes]


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