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Re: Aug. 19 telecon

From: Chris Welty <cawelty@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:50:27 -0400
Message-ID: <48AD6493.60607@gmail.com>
To: Hassan At-Kaci <hak@ilog.com>
CC: W3C RIF WG <public-rif-wg@w3.org>


Hi Hassan (&al),

Thanks for trying to follow through on this, but you don't need to; Zakim 
sometimes leaves phone numbers in the attendees list even after they have been 
identified.  So in this case all the attendees were identified and the phone 
numbers are spurious, you can just remove them.

And let me echo Hassan's point regarding regrets: it is bad form not to post 
regrets for a meeting, we (the chairs) do use that information when planning 
meeting agendas.

-Chris

Hassan At-Kaci wrote:
> 
> Hassan At-Kaci wrote:
>> Dear RIF members,
>>
>> Here are the minutes of today's telecon for which I was the scribe.
>> Please review and send me your comments by the end of Friday August
>> 22, as I will be taking off Aug. 23-31 on vacation.
>>
>> NB: there were three unidentified callers:
>>
>>       +1.914.784.aaaa
>>       +0493516aabb
>>       +1.503.533.aacc
> 
> +1.503.533.aacc has been identified (Gary Hallmark - thanks).
> 
> The other two, please claim your number (esp. if your name is not
> listed).
> 
>> Please identify yourselves.
> 
> Also: there were no regrets posted for this meeting even though is
> was a small one (15 attendees). Vacation, I know. But still: no posted
> regrets.
> 
> -hak
> 
>> Thanks.
>>
>> -hak
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> W3C <http://www.w3.org/>
>>
>>
>>   - DRAFT -
>>
>>
>>   RIF Telecon 19-Aug-08
>>
>>
>>     19 Aug 2008
>>
>> Agenda 
>> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0078.html>
>>
>> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-irc>
>>
>>
>>     Attendees
>>
>> Present
>>     Mike_Dean, josb, MichaelKifer, Sandro, JeffP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci,
>>     +1.914.784.aaaa, ChrisW, Stella_Mitchell, LeoraMorgenstern,
>>     Dave_Reynolds, +0493516aabb, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, +1.503.533.aacc,
>>     GaryHallmark
>> Regrets
>> Chair
>>     Chris Welty
>> Scribe
>>     Hassan_Ait-Kaci
>>
>>
>>     Contents
>>
>>     * Topics <#agenda>
>>          1. Admin <#item01>
>>          2. Liaison <#item02>
>>          3. Action review <#item03>
>>          4. F2F11 <#item04>
>>          5. Core <#item05>
>>          6. Test Cases <#item06>
>>          7. External review <#item07>
>>     * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>       Admin
>>
>> <ChrisW> Scribe: Hassan
>>
>> <ChrisW> 
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/att-0075/12-August-08-rif-minutes-revised.htm 
>>
>>
>> <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept minutes of Aug 12 telecon
>>
>> <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of Aug 12 telecon
>>
>>
>>       Liaison
>>
>> Sandro: OWL WG meeting a few weeks ago: go to last call in Oct 08. 
>> Draft due next month.
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> 
>> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec
>>
>> <sandro> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-text/
>>
>> Axel: reporting on rdf:text
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* chris to figure out how to link to rdf:text 
>> comments [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action01]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-559 - Figure out how to link to rdf:text 
>> comments [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> sandro will add a link to 
>> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec with the 
>> mailinglist address to solicit feedback?
>>
>> Axel: still open issues remaining; on his (Axel's) side nothing new to 
>> tell
>>
>>
>>       Action review
>>
>> <AdrianP> 
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Rules_instantiation:_INSTANTIATE
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> I completed ACTION-552, see 
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0074.html
>>
>> <AdrianP> currently the semantics does not account for pattern formula 
>> associated with an enclosing Forall
>>
>>
>>       F2F11
>>
>> No suggestion for hotels
>>
>> ChrisW: try hotels in Brooklyn or even Queens using public trans. to 
>> get lower rates
>>
>>
>>       Core
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* chris to put DTB review on agenda for next week 
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action02]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-560 - Put DTB review on agenda for next week 
>> [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> <ChrisW> 
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0067.html
>>
>> ChrisW: What should CORE be?
>>
>> BLD intersected PRD = CORE?
>>
>> DaveReynolds and GaryHallmark agree on this def
>>
>> ChrisW: Assume this is so (CORE *is* the intersection) - how do we 
>> define this language?
>>
>> GaryHallmark: decidability or tractability issues for CORE are not 
>> relevant for RIF
>>
>> ChrisW: What does such an intersection look like?
>>
>> GaryHallmark: we could extract the syntax from the common grammar rules
>>
>> <AdrianP> core production rule syntax, i.e. without negation; only 
>> assert in the head and without the special pattern formula in the forall
>>
>> GaryHallmark: intended semantics overlap is a fuzzy concept; make 
>> things that are relevant or not more explicit
>>
>> AdrianP: Suggests a specific language... will work it out (for the 
>> condition language)
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* apaschke to document the BLD/PRD syntax 
>> intersection [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action05]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-561 - Document the BLD/PRD syntax 
>> intersection [on Adrian Paschke - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> <AdrianP> yes
>>
>> ChrisW: Handling of external functions; skolem functions as well; 
>> subclassing also
>>
>> DaveReynolds: prefers that CORE stay minimal and not have membership 
>> and subclass
>>
>> ChrisW: Who would disagree as a maximal intersection of PRB and BLD?
>>
>> Jos: how useful a language would that be?
>>
>> ChrisW: a maximal intersection of PRB and BLD would make interchange 
>> easier
>>
>> Jos: yes, but there may be other uses for CORE
>>
>> ChrisW: so it should be easy to "implement"
>>
>> <AdrianP> other uses e.g. the integration of CORE + ontologies. 
>> Decidability is often a requirement for many application scenarios
>>
>> <GaryHallmark> PRD has no equality in the head, so neither does Core
>>
>> ChrisW: Jos would an Easy-To-Implement core bigger or less?
>>
>> Jos: it would be less
>>
>> GaryHallmark: it would be good to itemize "things" that make this hard 
>> ... disjunction?
>>
>> <AdrianP> disjunction in the body can be split into two rules, so 
>> there is no need to have it in Core
>>
>> DaveReynolds describes features that he'd wish for CORE (a la Jena)
>>
>> ChrisW: another aspect is to relate it to existing languages
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Dave to open CORE issues on tracker [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action06]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-562 - Open CORE issues on tracker [on Dave 
>> Reynolds - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> ChrisW: More on Core?
>>
>> No more on core
>>
>>
>>       Test Cases
>>
>> <AdrianP> the discussion points: 
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0056.html
>>
>> ChrisW: shooting for one-month after the F2F to have the final draft 
>> ready
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> yes
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> about how many test cases by then?
>>
>> ChrisW: review of the approach?
>>
>> Discussing format of the document
>>
>> <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
>>
>> StellaMitchell: Test Case Number of Results as an example
>>
>> AdrianP: explains what a query is in the context on the test case
>>
>> Jos: Why do you need such a concept as a "query"?
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> I made some comments on test cases and "query" answers 
>> in my mail.
>>
>> Jos: proposes a simpler scheme instead based on logical entailment
>>
>> ChrisW: we have not defined what a query is
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> +1 to jos because enumerating "answers" is not 
>> possible, especially if there are infinite answers.
>>
>> Jos: exactly: so better not use it
>>
>> AdrianP: we need it because entailment is not enough in certain test 
>> cases
>>
>> Jos: argues against the need
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> ... also, we'd need a defined output format, etc.
>>
>> ChrisW: I think Adrian is referring more to a unit test
>>
>> <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
>>
>> ChrisW: does not like the arrow of the frame notation
>>
>> (Test case Positive Entailment Test)
>>
>> ChrisW: understands the notation Premiss -> Conclusion
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> no.
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> no arbitrary condition...
>>
>> ChrisW: hesitant to define a whole new language for just test cases
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> ... I was suggesting such more general built-ins some 
>> time ago.
>>
>> <DaveReynolds> positive and negative entailment tests seem like the 
>> main ones to me
>>
>> <GaryHallmark> can a BLD expert comment on the "answer" to 
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PositiveEntailment_Entail_everything
>>
>> Axel: agrees - need a new language for the queries, the output, etc ...
>>
>> ChrisW: try to focus on entailment
>>
>> StellaMitchell: question on the exact nature of the test cases
>>
>> <josb> Gary: Indeed, A(t), for any ground term t, is entailed
>>
>> ChrisW: test cases should use things that are expressible in BLD
>>
>> <josb> If you say everything is in A, you can derive that everything 
>> is in A
>>
>> ChrisW: let's keep it simple
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> I would have more comments when it comes to test cases 
>> for core... but I don't know whether this is in scope of the 
>> discussion now and whether I haven't said all in the mails yet on this 
>> topic.
>>
>> ChrisW: Jos and Michael - please think up some test cases for BLD
>>
>> Jos: also w/ RDF and OWL - will do
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/SWC_test1
>>
>> ChrisW: anyone else please as well
>>
>> <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Built-Ins_numeric_add
>>
>> <AdrianP> a test case for each DTB built-in
>>
>> <josb> many
>>
>> StellaMitchell: do we need things like shown in "Built-Ins numeric 
>> add" test case?
>>
>> ChrisW: this looks more like what I was imagining ...
>>
>> StellaMitchell: do we need to verify that all the builtins are 
>> implemented?
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* chris to add "test case for every builtin?" to 
>> issues list [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action07]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-563 - Add \"test case for every builtin?\" 
>> to issues list [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> <AdrianP> usually test cases a simple, at least from the point of view 
>> of test-driven development in agile programming
>>
>> <ChrisW> areck jos
>>
>> Jos: wonders if test cases for consistency checking are needed?
>>
>> <josb> "a"="b"
>>
>> <AxelPolleres> jos, could you specify an example for where builtins 
>> cause inconsistency?!?
>>
>> <AdrianP> beside entailment tests we currently have syntax tests
>>
>> <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Negative_Syntax_free_vars
>>
>> ChrisW and Axel do not believe so
>>
>> StellaMitchell: it was question to have some consistency checks where 
>> they are needed
>>
>> <AdrianP> I listed some categories of potential test cases here 
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test#Categories_of_RIF_Test_Cases
>>
>> <josb> Axel: currently not sure whether there is anything besides 
>> equality that can cause inconsistency, but I suspect there is
>>
>> Sandro: agrees that as much consistency check should be done 
>> (necessary conditions, not sufficient)
>>
>> <AdrianP> inconsistency e.g. in PRD due to negation
>>
>> Sandro: discusses the format of the tests (for nested tables) and how 
>> to simplify it
>>
>> AdrianP: asks a question about editing the test cases
>> ... using a standard syntax or XML
>>
>> StellaMitchell: yes we need an official format
>>
>> <GaryHallmark> stella: nice to be able to enter tests in presentation 
>> syntax and then auto convert to XML
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> did Hassan write a program to convert PS to XML?
>>
>> Sandro: discusses how to organize the wiki to automate all this
>> ... using RDF data and XHTML tables
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* hassan to finish PS to XML conversion based on LC 
>> BLD grammar [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action08]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-564 - Finish PS to XML conversion based on 
>> LC BLD grammar [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> Sandro: discussing using Pres. Syntax and then generate XML form
>>
>> ChrisW: how do we ensure that all versions of the same syntax are kept 
>> consistent with one another?
>> ... the idea is to keep all the wiki versions of the same thing be 
>> kept consistent (in PS or XML)
>>
>> Sandro: there are ways to do that ...
>>
>> ChrisW: test metadata and the submission process?
>>
>> AdrianP: describes the current submission process ...
>>
>> ChrisW: what about an editorial process?
>>
>> AdrianP: yes
>>
>> ChrisW: how - email? wiki?
>>
>> <LeoraMorgenstern> I think email submission is fine.
>>
>> Sandro: not sure of ways to do that ...
>>
>> <LeoraMorgenstern> If it's emailed to the WG, we will have a record of 
>> it, but still not allow access to the wiki.
>>
>> Sandro: ... from the wiki
>>
>> <LeoraMorgenstern> In any case, we have to vet and modify the 
>> examples, so there will be work involved in any case with exernal 
>> submissions.
>>
>> Sandro: let us use email for now
>>
>> <LeoraMorgenstern> I agree Sandro; I don't think we'll get many email 
>> submissions
>>
>> ChrisW: we'll review this again next week
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* sandro to get CVS access for TCG [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action09]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-565 - Get CVS access for TCG [on Sandro 
>> Hawke - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> ChrisW: giving a pat on the back of Adrian et al...
>>
>>
>>       External review
>>
>> <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_PPS4
>>
>> ChrisW: external review from Peter Patel-Schneider
>>
>> <ChrisW> who is on the phone?
>>
>> Jos: perhaps Michael should respond
>>
>> <sandro> grrr
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Chris to ask MK to look at PFPS4 [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action10]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-566 - Ask MK to look at PFPS4 [on 
>> Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> <AdrianP> ok
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> ok
>>
>> <sandro> Is this page public? http://www.w3.org/Systems/Accounts/w3t/
>>
>> ChrisW: saying something wise ... ;-)
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* chris to ask axel to look at 2cnd to last comment 
>> on PFPS4 [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action11]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-567 - Ask axel to look at 2cnd to last 
>> comment on PFPS4 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
>>
>> <AdrianP> Sandro, no it is not public
>>
>> <josb> +1
>>
>> +1 to adjourn
>>
>>
>>     Summary of Action Items
>>
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Adrian to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection 
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action04]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* AdrianP to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection 
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action03]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* apaschke to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection 
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action05]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* chris to add "test case for every builtin?" to 
>> issues list [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action07]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* chris to ask axel to look at 2cnd to last comment on 
>> PFPS4 [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action11]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Chris to ask MK to look at PFPS4 [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action10]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* chris to figure out how to link to rdf:text comments 
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action01]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* chris to put DTB review on agenda for next week 
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action02]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Dave to open CORE issues on tracker [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action06]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* hassan to finish PS to XML conversion based on LC 
>> BLD grammar [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action08]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* sandro to get CVS access for TCG [recorded in 
>> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action09]
>>  
>> [End of minutes]
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 
>> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> 
>> version 1.133 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
>> $Date: 2008/08/19 16:26:45 $
>>
> 
> 

-- 
Dr. Christopher A. Welty                    IBM Watson Research Center
+1.914.784.7055                             19 Skyline Dr.
cawelty@gmail.com                           Hawthorne, NY 10532
http://www.research.ibm.com/people/w/welty
Received on Thursday, 21 August 2008 12:51:13 GMT

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