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Re: Aug. 19 telecon

From: Hassan At-Kaci <hak@ilog.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:13:49 -0700
Message-ID: <48ACA52D.9070501@ilog.com>
To: W3C RIF WG <public-rif-wg@w3.org>

Hassan At-Kaci wrote:
> Dear RIF members,
> 
> Here are the minutes of today's telecon for which I was the scribe.
> Please review and send me your comments by the end of Friday August
> 22, as I will be taking off Aug. 23-31 on vacation.
> 
> NB: there were three unidentified callers:
> 
>       +1.914.784.aaaa
>       +0493516aabb
>       +1.503.533.aacc

+1.503.533.aacc has been identified (Gary Hallmark - thanks).

The other two, please claim your number (esp. if your name is not
listed).

> Please identify yourselves.

Also: there were no regrets posted for this meeting even though is
was a small one (15 attendees). Vacation, I know. But still: no posted
regrets.

-hak

> Thanks.
> 
> -hak
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> W3C <http://www.w3.org/>
> 
> 
>   - DRAFT -
> 
> 
>   RIF Telecon 19-Aug-08
> 
> 
>     19 Aug 2008
> 
> Agenda <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0078.html>
> 
> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-irc>
> 
> 
>     Attendees
> 
> Present
>     Mike_Dean, josb, MichaelKifer, Sandro, JeffP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci,
>     +1.914.784.aaaa, ChrisW, Stella_Mitchell, LeoraMorgenstern,
>     Dave_Reynolds, +0493516aabb, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, +1.503.533.aacc,
>     GaryHallmark
> Regrets
> Chair
>     Chris Welty
> Scribe
>     Hassan_Ait-Kaci
> 
> 
>     Contents
> 
>     * Topics <#agenda>
>          1. Admin <#item01>
>          2. Liaison <#item02>
>          3. Action review <#item03>
>          4. F2F11 <#item04>
>          5. Core <#item05>
>          6. Test Cases <#item06>
>          7. External review <#item07>
>     * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>       Admin
> 
> <ChrisW> Scribe: Hassan
> 
> <ChrisW> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/att-0075/12-August-08-rif-minutes-revised.htm
> 
> <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept minutes of Aug 12 telecon
> 
> <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of Aug 12 telecon
> 
> 
>       Liaison
> 
> Sandro: OWL WG meeting a few weeks ago: go to last call in Oct 08. Draft 
> due next month.
> 
> <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec
> 
> <sandro> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-text/
> 
> Axel: reporting on rdf:text
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* chris to figure out how to link to rdf:text comments 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action01]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-559 - Figure out how to link to rdf:text 
> comments [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> <AxelPolleres> sandro will add a link to 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec with the 
> mailinglist address to solicit feedback?
> 
> Axel: still open issues remaining; on his (Axel's) side nothing new to tell
> 
> 
>       Action review
> 
> <AdrianP> 
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Rules_instantiation:_INSTANTIATE
> 
> <AxelPolleres> I completed ACTION-552, see 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0074.html
> 
> <AdrianP> currently the semantics does not account for pattern formula 
> associated with an enclosing Forall
> 
> 
>       F2F11
> 
> No suggestion for hotels
> 
> ChrisW: try hotels in Brooklyn or even Queens using public trans. to get 
> lower rates
> 
> 
>       Core
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* chris to put DTB review on agenda for next week 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action02]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-560 - Put DTB review on agenda for next week 
> [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0067.html
> 
> ChrisW: What should CORE be?
> 
> BLD intersected PRD = CORE?
> 
> DaveReynolds and GaryHallmark agree on this def
> 
> ChrisW: Assume this is so (CORE *is* the intersection) - how do we 
> define this language?
> 
> GaryHallmark: decidability or tractability issues for CORE are not 
> relevant for RIF
> 
> ChrisW: What does such an intersection look like?
> 
> GaryHallmark: we could extract the syntax from the common grammar rules
> 
> <AdrianP> core production rule syntax, i.e. without negation; only 
> assert in the head and without the special pattern formula in the forall
> 
> GaryHallmark: intended semantics overlap is a fuzzy concept; make things 
> that are relevant or not more explicit
> 
> AdrianP: Suggests a specific language... will work it out (for the 
> condition language)
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* apaschke to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action05]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-561 - Document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection 
> [on Adrian Paschke - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> <AdrianP> yes
> 
> ChrisW: Handling of external functions; skolem functions as well; 
> subclassing also
> 
> DaveReynolds: prefers that CORE stay minimal and not have membership and 
> subclass
> 
> ChrisW: Who would disagree as a maximal intersection of PRB and BLD?
> 
> Jos: how useful a language would that be?
> 
> ChrisW: a maximal intersection of PRB and BLD would make interchange easier
> 
> Jos: yes, but there may be other uses for CORE
> 
> ChrisW: so it should be easy to "implement"
> 
> <AdrianP> other uses e.g. the integration of CORE + ontologies. 
> Decidability is often a requirement for many application scenarios
> 
> <GaryHallmark> PRD has no equality in the head, so neither does Core
> 
> ChrisW: Jos would an Easy-To-Implement core bigger or less?
> 
> Jos: it would be less
> 
> GaryHallmark: it would be good to itemize "things" that make this hard 
> ... disjunction?
> 
> <AdrianP> disjunction in the body can be split into two rules, so there 
> is no need to have it in Core
> 
> DaveReynolds describes features that he'd wish for CORE (a la Jena)
> 
> ChrisW: another aspect is to relate it to existing languages
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Dave to open CORE issues on tracker [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action06]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-562 - Open CORE issues on tracker [on Dave 
> Reynolds - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> ChrisW: More on Core?
> 
> No more on core
> 
> 
>       Test Cases
> 
> <AdrianP> the discussion points: 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0056.html
> 
> ChrisW: shooting for one-month after the F2F to have the final draft ready
> 
> <StellaMitchell> yes
> 
> <StellaMitchell> about how many test cases by then?
> 
> ChrisW: review of the approach?
> 
> Discussing format of the document
> 
> <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
> 
> StellaMitchell: Test Case Number of Results as an example
> 
> AdrianP: explains what a query is in the context on the test case
> 
> Jos: Why do you need such a concept as a "query"?
> 
> <AxelPolleres> I made some comments on test cases and "query" answers in 
> my mail.
> 
> Jos: proposes a simpler scheme instead based on logical entailment
> 
> ChrisW: we have not defined what a query is
> 
> <AxelPolleres> +1 to jos because enumerating "answers" is not possible, 
> especially if there are infinite answers.
> 
> Jos: exactly: so better not use it
> 
> AdrianP: we need it because entailment is not enough in certain test cases
> 
> Jos: argues against the need
> 
> <AxelPolleres> ... also, we'd need a defined output format, etc.
> 
> ChrisW: I think Adrian is referring more to a unit test
> 
> <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
> 
> ChrisW: does not like the arrow of the frame notation
> 
> (Test case Positive Entailment Test)
> 
> ChrisW: understands the notation Premiss -> Conclusion
> 
> <AxelPolleres> no.
> 
> <AxelPolleres> no arbitrary condition...
> 
> ChrisW: hesitant to define a whole new language for just test cases
> 
> <AxelPolleres> ... I was suggesting such more general built-ins some 
> time ago.
> 
> <DaveReynolds> positive and negative entailment tests seem like the main 
> ones to me
> 
> <GaryHallmark> can a BLD expert comment on the "answer" to 
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PositiveEntailment_Entail_everything
> 
> Axel: agrees - need a new language for the queries, the output, etc ...
> 
> ChrisW: try to focus on entailment
> 
> StellaMitchell: question on the exact nature of the test cases
> 
> <josb> Gary: Indeed, A(t), for any ground term t, is entailed
> 
> ChrisW: test cases should use things that are expressible in BLD
> 
> <josb> If you say everything is in A, you can derive that everything is in A
> 
> ChrisW: let's keep it simple
> 
> <AxelPolleres> I would have more comments when it comes to test cases 
> for core... but I don't know whether this is in scope of the discussion 
> now and whether I haven't said all in the mails yet on this topic.
> 
> ChrisW: Jos and Michael - please think up some test cases for BLD
> 
> Jos: also w/ RDF and OWL - will do
> 
> <StellaMitchell> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/SWC_test1
> 
> ChrisW: anyone else please as well
> 
> <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Built-Ins_numeric_add
> 
> <AdrianP> a test case for each DTB built-in
> 
> <josb> many
> 
> StellaMitchell: do we need things like shown in "Built-Ins numeric add" 
> test case?
> 
> ChrisW: this looks more like what I was imagining ...
> 
> StellaMitchell: do we need to verify that all the builtins are implemented?
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* chris to add "test case for every builtin?" to issues 
> list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action07]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-563 - Add \"test case for every builtin?\" to 
> issues list [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> <AdrianP> usually test cases a simple, at least from the point of view 
> of test-driven development in agile programming
> 
> <ChrisW> areck jos
> 
> Jos: wonders if test cases for consistency checking are needed?
> 
> <josb> "a"="b"
> 
> <AxelPolleres> jos, could you specify an example for where builtins 
> cause inconsistency?!?
> 
> <AdrianP> beside entailment tests we currently have syntax tests
> 
> <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Negative_Syntax_free_vars
> 
> ChrisW and Axel do not believe so
> 
> StellaMitchell: it was question to have some consistency checks where 
> they are needed
> 
> <AdrianP> I listed some categories of potential test cases here 
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test#Categories_of_RIF_Test_Cases
> 
> <josb> Axel: currently not sure whether there is anything besides 
> equality that can cause inconsistency, but I suspect there is
> 
> Sandro: agrees that as much consistency check should be done (necessary 
> conditions, not sufficient)
> 
> <AdrianP> inconsistency e.g. in PRD due to negation
> 
> Sandro: discusses the format of the tests (for nested tables) and how to 
> simplify it
> 
> AdrianP: asks a question about editing the test cases
> ... using a standard syntax or XML
> 
> StellaMitchell: yes we need an official format
> 
> <GaryHallmark> stella: nice to be able to enter tests in presentation 
> syntax and then auto convert to XML
> 
> <StellaMitchell> did Hassan write a program to convert PS to XML?
> 
> Sandro: discusses how to organize the wiki to automate all this
> ... using RDF data and XHTML tables
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* hassan to finish PS to XML conversion based on LC BLD 
> grammar [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action08]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-564 - Finish PS to XML conversion based on LC 
> BLD grammar [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> Sandro: discussing using Pres. Syntax and then generate XML form
> 
> ChrisW: how do we ensure that all versions of the same syntax are kept 
> consistent with one another?
> ... the idea is to keep all the wiki versions of the same thing be kept 
> consistent (in PS or XML)
> 
> Sandro: there are ways to do that ...
> 
> ChrisW: test metadata and the submission process?
> 
> AdrianP: describes the current submission process ...
> 
> ChrisW: what about an editorial process?
> 
> AdrianP: yes
> 
> ChrisW: how - email? wiki?
> 
> <LeoraMorgenstern> I think email submission is fine.
> 
> Sandro: not sure of ways to do that ...
> 
> <LeoraMorgenstern> If it's emailed to the WG, we will have a record of 
> it, but still not allow access to the wiki.
> 
> Sandro: ... from the wiki
> 
> <LeoraMorgenstern> In any case, we have to vet and modify the examples, 
> so there will be work involved in any case with exernal submissions.
> 
> Sandro: let us use email for now
> 
> <LeoraMorgenstern> I agree Sandro; I don't think we'll get many email 
> submissions
> 
> ChrisW: we'll review this again next week
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* sandro to get CVS access for TCG [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action09]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-565 - Get CVS access for TCG [on Sandro Hawke 
> - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> ChrisW: giving a pat on the back of Adrian et al...
> 
> 
>       External review
> 
> <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_PPS4
> 
> ChrisW: external review from Peter Patel-Schneider
> 
> <ChrisW> who is on the phone?
> 
> Jos: perhaps Michael should respond
> 
> <sandro> grrr
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Chris to ask MK to look at PFPS4 [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action10]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-566 - Ask MK to look at PFPS4 [on Christopher 
> Welty - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> <AdrianP> ok
> 
> <StellaMitchell> ok
> 
> <sandro> Is this page public? http://www.w3.org/Systems/Accounts/w3t/
> 
> ChrisW: saying something wise ... ;-)
> 
> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* chris to ask axel to look at 2cnd to last comment on 
> PFPS4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action11]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-567 - Ask axel to look at 2cnd to last comment 
> on PFPS4 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
> 
> <AdrianP> Sandro, no it is not public
> 
> <josb> +1
> 
> +1 to adjourn
> 
> 
>     Summary of Action Items
> 
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Adrian to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action04]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* AdrianP to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action03]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* apaschke to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action05]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* chris to add "test case for every builtin?" to issues 
> list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action07]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* chris to ask axel to look at 2cnd to last comment on 
> PFPS4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action11]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Chris to ask MK to look at PFPS4 [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action10]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* chris to figure out how to link to rdf:text comments 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action01]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* chris to put DTB review on agenda for next week 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action02]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Dave to open CORE issues on tracker [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action06]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* hassan to finish PS to XML conversion based on LC BLD 
> grammar [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action08]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* sandro to get CVS access for TCG [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action09]
>  
> [End of minutes]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> 
> version 1.133 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
> $Date: 2008/08/19 16:26:45 $
> 


-- 
Hassan At-Kaci  *  ILOG, Inc. - Product Division R&D
http://koala.ilog.fr/wiki/bin/view/Main/HassanAitKaci
Received on Wednesday, 20 August 2008 23:15:37 GMT

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