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Re: Deprecate most "native" RDF serializations

From: Eric Prud'hommeaux <eric@w3.org>
Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 23:28:25 -0400
To: Gavin Carothers <gavin@carothers.name>
Cc: Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org>, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>, public-rdf-wg@w3.org
Message-ID: <20120507032823.GI28334@w3.org>
* Gavin Carothers <gavin@carothers.name> [2012-05-05 21:08-0700]
> On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:11 PM, Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2012-05-05 at 19:50 -0700, Gavin Carothers wrote:
> >> On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 11:22 -0400, Manu Sporny wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> """
> >> >> TURTLE Lite would effectively be a subset of TURTLE - N-Quads, or
> >> >> something that would be N-Quads-like (allowing for either "s p o" or
> >> >> "s
> >> >> p o c" statements).
> >> >> """
> >> >>
> >> >> Gavin has asserted that TURTLE already supports N-Triples... now all
> >> >> we
> >> >> need to do is to make N-Quads a subset of TURTLE and we're good for
> >> >> TURTLE Lite.
> >> >
> >> > Since a subset can't include things not in its superset, I guess you're
> >> > saying that Turtle should include the dataset/quad stuff?  Do you have a
> >> > proposed syntax for that?   I don't think adding the label after the
> >> > triple, as in N-Quads, works well in Turtle...
> >> >
> >> >  s p o1 g, o2 g; p2 o3 g.
> >> >
> >> > Nah.   Maybe just like trig, where you have a triple you could have
> >> > label + { graph }.   Or maybe a GRAPH keyword like in SPARQL.  I kind of
> >> > like that.
> >>
> >> Yes, had proposed adding @graph to Turtle. There wasn't support for
> >> doing so. Too much of a change to the language.
> >
> > It might be more accurate to say there was more opposition than support
> > at the time.   There was some support.   Manu might be offering more --
> > and, more to the point, he's making a new argument that might
> > potentially be supported by data.   (He's arguing for simplicity to
> > appeal to potential adopters.  RDF experts are in some cases the worst
> > people to assess that kind of argument.)
> 
> See http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graphs-In-Turtle
> Email thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Sep/0170.html
> Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-28
> 
> This was close to my initial argument as well 7 months ago. Publishing
> Turtle as a preferred way to publish RDF at the same as publishing a
> new recommendation about named graphs and not being able to use named
> graphs in Turtle seems poor. Also existing implementations today
> already use special comments in Turtle documents to support something
> very like named graphs. 8 months ago figured I'd wait to worry about
> this more till we settled on named graph support in the next 3 months
> ... yeah ... The nearness of a Turtle LC and the ongoing
> confusion/conversation/whatever on named graphs is reducing my own
> support for trying to support "named graphs" in Turtle. This likely
> means that if whatever we come up with for named graphs sees wide
> adoption more people will move towards TriG (or whatever Turtle like
> multi graph format) as the default format rather than
> Turtle/N-Triples. Lee Feigenbaum already comments to that effect in
> the thread. If your using multi graphs today, you can't really use
> Turtle.

I'm all down with a combined language/spec. I wasn't keen on graph
markers without {}s to help me see the scope, but I'm not sure where
consensus lies on that coin flip.


> > Other than backward compatibility -- which we're breaking on other
> > places already, can you think of any reason we're using @prefix instead
> > of SPARQL's PREFIX?
> 
> At this time we have non compliant PARSERS. All existing Turtle
> documents should still be valid Turtle documents (with possible very
> odd edge cases), if this is not the case then I would consider it a
> bug in the new specification. Saying that old parsers are not
> compliant is very different than saying that old documents are not
> Turtle any more.
> 
> >
> >  -- Sandro
> >
> >> >
> >> > Steve has argued very strongly, and Andy just mentioned again, that
> >> > people want to know from the mime type whether they'll be getting
> >> > triples or quads.   Steve sees it as a big security issue -- you don't
> >> > want to load quads in from the Web and have them over-write your
> >> > crawler's internal state metadata or data that was supposedly fetched
> >> > from other address. I'm not convinced, myself, not at all, because I
> >> > think one needs to have an "untrusted" mode of loading quads that
> >> > renames all the graphs.
> >> >
> >> >    -- Sandro
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> 

-- 
-ericP
Received on Monday, 7 May 2012 03:28:57 GMT

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