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Re: Use cases wrt Dataset proposal (UC 1.5, UC 5.2)

From: Antoine Zimmermann <antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:09:21 +0100
Message-ID: <4F50D491.1090707@emse.fr>
To: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
CC: Dan Brickley <danbri@danbri.org>, RDF WG <public-rdf-wg@w3.org>



Le 01/03/2012 20:16, Pat Hayes a écrit :
>
> On Mar 1, 2012, at 2:50 AM, Antoine Zimmermann wrote:
>
>> Le 01/03/2012 08:48, Dan Brickley a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, 29 February 2012, Antoine Zimmermann wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> If I say in an ontology document:
>>>
>>> <>   owl:imports<http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/antoine#me>.
>>>
>>> then, what I get, according to the OWL specs, is an ontology
>>> with the content of http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/antoine
>>> included, in spite
>>> of<http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/antoine#me>  denoting a
>>> foaf:Person.
>>>
>>> Please take a look at the OWL 2 spec section 3.2 to check.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why should an ontology's RDF description not include information
>>> about real-world entities?
>>
>> On the contrary, it should. It is not what I said. I say that the
>> import mechanism does not care about what kind of entity is denoted
>> by the IRI used with owl:imports.
>
> No, it does care. If http-range-14 is correct, then that URI has to
> denote an information resource.
>
>> In the example above, the owl:imports statement implies (in the OWL
>> 2 RDF based semantics, which is certainly the one the RDF WG is
>> most interested in)
>> that<http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/antoine#me>  is an
>> ontology, but after the import is effective via a HTTP lookup, it
>> will be inferred
>> that<http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/antoine#me>  is a
>> foaf:Person as well. This is consistent, as nothing says that
>> ontologies cannot be people,
>
> Actually it is impossible for an OWL ontology document (which is what
> gets retrieved) to be a person, and there might even be true
> ontologies out there which assert this.

Impossible?  From what do you conclude this?

>
> This discussion is clearly deeply involved with the whole http-range
> issue. If we accept the TAG ruling on http-range-14, at least for
> now, and if the http retrieval in this example returns a 200-level
> coded response without any redirection, then we do have to assume
> that the URI denotes an "information resource", ie a Web document,
> more or less. And hence that it cannot be a person (or maybe better,
> it would be false and dangerous to move ahead with any infernce that
> was based on such a claim, as it is false and very liable to be
> contradicted by an accepted and authoritative ontology somewhere.) So
> I dont thikn we can be so blasé as you would like us to be about
> situations like this.

http-range-14 has nothing to do with the semantics of OWL, but let me 
tell you that what's retrieved by the HTTP lookup in this example is the 
document at http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/antoine, which is *not* 
the URI used in the owl:imports statement.


>
> Pat
>
>
>> but it may seem weird to some people. But look at the following
>> example:
>>
>>
>> <>  owl:imports<http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#stuff>  .
>> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#stuff>
>> owl:sameAs<http://dbpedia.org/ontology/>  .
>>
>> This will import the FOAF ontology (assuming the application is
>> doing a HTTP lookup). However, this:
>>
>> <>  owl:imports<http://dbpedia.org/ontology/>  .
>> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#stuff>
>> owl:sameAs<http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#stuff>  .
>>
>> will import the dbpedia ontology.
>>
>> In spite of owl:sameAs being formally interpreted as identity,
>> these two ontologies will eventually have very different
>> inferences. This is because the mechanics behind owl:imports is not
>> part of the model theory of OWL.
>>
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the very least, if we mandate this, then we need to clarify
>>> the semantic role of "label" URIs in datasets.
>>>
>>> Pat
>>>
>>> ------------------------------__------------------------------
>>> IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202
>>> 4416 office Pensacola                            (850)202 4440
>>> fax FL 32502                              (850)291 0667 mobile
>>> phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/__phayes
>>> <http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Antoine Zimmermann ISCOD / LSTI - Institut Henri Fayol École
>>> Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Saint-Étienne 158 cours
>>> Fauriel 42023 Saint-Étienne Cedex 2 France Tél:+33(0)4 77 42 83
>>> 36 Fax:+33(0)4 77 42 66 66 http://zimmer.__aprilfoolsreview.com/
>>> <http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- Antoine Zimmermann ISCOD / LSTI - Institut Henri Fayol École
>> Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Saint-Étienne 158 cours Fauriel
>> 42023 Saint-Étienne Cedex 2 France Tél:+33(0)4 77 42 83 36
>> Fax:+33(0)4 77 42 66 66 http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ IHMC
> (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973 40 South Alcaniz St.
> (850)202 4416   office Pensacola                            (850)202
> 4440   fax FL 32502                              (850)291 0667
> mobile phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Antoine Zimmermann
ISCOD / LSTI - Institut Henri Fayol
École Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Saint-Étienne
158 cours Fauriel
42023 Saint-Étienne Cedex 2
France
Tél:+33(0)4 77 42 83 36
Fax:+33(0)4 77 42 66 66
http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/
Received on Friday, 2 March 2012 14:09:43 GMT

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