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Meeting minutes, 2009-09-17

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:07:42 +0200
Message-ID: <4AB25ECE.9090807@w3.org>
To: W3C RDFa task force <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Manu had to run to the HTML5 meeting, so I cleaned up the minutes.

Here they are online:

http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html

and the text version is below.

Cheers

Ivan

-----------------------------------------

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                        RDF in XHTML Task Force

17 Sep 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0147.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Manu_Sporny, Steven_Pemberton, Ivan_Herman, Ben_Adida,
          Shane_McCarron

   Regrets
   Chair
          Ben_Adida

   Scribe
          Manu_Sporny

Contents

     * [4]Contents
          + [5]Action Items
               o [6]XMLLiteral issue
               o [7]Charter related issues
          + [8]ISSUE-236: Clarify the meaning of "ignore"
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________



   <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny

   <msporny> scribenick: msporny

   Previous: [10]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html

Action Items

   <benadida> manu: yes, call at 12pm eastern on HTML and RDFa FPWD

   manu: I'll be on that call

   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns
   algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [DONE]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   <benadida> -->
   [12]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript

     [12] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript

   ben: it will work in HTML5, but not XHTML5

   <benadida> ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on
   implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force"
   email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

XMLLiteral issue

   ben: The issue may not be done.
   ... This is about XMLLiteral c14n -- is it RDFa's job or the SPARQL
   processors job?

   ivan: Let's try to close this issue.
   ... SPARQL spec doesn't say that it does c14n
   ... what this boils down to is that the Test Cases, the SPARQL code
   that we use should have the canonicalized XML in it.
   ... the test cases are more liberal than they should be when it
   comes to c14n

   manu: I don't know if the spec is correct.

   ivan: Canonical XML states that we should insert the namespaces that
   are used in the literal, and nothing more.

   manu: We might give a different impression to implementers

   ivan: We might want to clarify things as well in a future editors
   spec.

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace
   preservation [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [DONE]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   <benadida> -->
   [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009S
   ep/0158.html

     [16]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0158.html

   manu: The test case issues are outlined in that e-mail
   ... the other issue is the c14n vs. proper XMLLiteral RDFa
   preservation.

   ben: Yes, there is an issue here and the issue is slightly larger
   than RDFa.

   ivan: The SPARQL group are considering an official errata for RDF to
   address this issue.
   ... This is an issue that came about years ago, but we need to deal
   with it.

   ben: So, what is the path forward.

   <benadida> [17]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter

     [17] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter

   manu: Accept c14n XMLLiteral definition and accept that we won't be
   able to preserve namespaces for RDFa in XMLLiterals

Charter related issues

   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded
   in [18]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
   [DONE]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   ivan: Let's put the charter off for 6-8 weeks. We're not under huge
   pressure to do that.

   ben: I don't think we should submit the charter now, but we
   shouldn't delay it.

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss schedule

   shane: I'm the one who pushed schedule because these things take
   time.

   ivan: If we do this in November, this shouldn't be an issue.

   <benadida> msporny: sam ruby and doug schepers have offered to host
   an RDFa TF in HTML and SVG WGs.

   <benadida> ben: I'm not convinced that this is a good idea yet.

   ivan: A Task Force between two working groups work well when two
   groups are friendly with each other.
   ... It's also more administration overhead.
   ... I'd prefer the RDFa Core work to stay in SWD.

   <markbirbeck> Should also add that it works when the two groups are
   complementary to each other.

   ivan: There are things that we may plan to do that have nothing to
   do with HTML.

   <markbirbeck> Which is not the case here.

   ben: One thing we should try to steer clear of anything that doesn't
   follow W3C process.
   ... We should be collaborating with HTML WG.
   ... We should strive to be true to W3C process.

   ivan: Let's wait and see how the HTML+RDFa FPWD works out. If it
   works, then that would be best.

ISSUE-236: Clarify the meaning of "ignore"

   ben: We depend on rel with a bad value and the absence of rel as
   being different.
   ... We do not do the same for @typeof.

   Ivan can you scribe?

   I can clean up the minutes afterwards

   <ivan> scribenick: ivan

   mark: when I made all the changes to cleanup curie processing, then
   I might have missed this

   shane: wait...

   mark: I think the discussion on the list is pretty good

   shane: ben said rel="" and rel="rubbish" is not the same thing

   mark: if I completely remove rel from an element, then there is no
   hanging stuff kick in
   ... if there is a rel, then the mechanism does kick in

   shane: the real issue is with datatypes
   ... and with typeof
   ... typeof does not have a special behaviour for typeof=""

   mark: the issue does originate from the datatype handling
   ... during the course of discussion I discovered that typeof does
   not behave like we meant it
   ... there are two issues: (1) datatypes and (2) typeof

   shane: our intent is clear
   ... and all implementations that passed the tests did it like we
   intended
   ... we can put the two phrases into the places where it needs it
   then we are done

   manu: do we feel that we have a clear text that we can put in? Did
   we check that against the test cases?
   ... there might have to add some new test cases
   ... i do not know what my parser would do...

   mark: the key thing is that it creates a b node

   shane: the final piece here is where jeni is incorrect
   ... if there is typeof, it generates a bnode, but that one is not
   used as a subject of another triple

   mark: but it can complete hanging triples

   <ShaneM> Jeni says in an email:

   <ShaneM> In the case of

   <ShaneM> <p xmlns:ex="[19]http://example.org/"
   about="[20]http://example.com/" rel="ex:rel3">

     [19] http://example.org/
     [20] http://example.com/

   <ShaneM>    <span property="bogus:bogus" content="Content 3">

   <ShaneM>      <span about="[21]http://example.net/">Test 3</span>

     [21] http://example.net/

   <ShaneM>    </span>

   <ShaneM>  </p>

   <ShaneM> by the same argument, we should create:

   <ShaneM> Default graph:

   <ShaneM>   <[22]http://example.com/> <[23]http://example.org/rel3>
   _:a .

     [22] http://example.com/%3E
     [23] http://example.org/rel3%3E

   <ShaneM> Graph A:

   <ShaneM>   _:a bogus:bogus "Content 3" .

   mark: the key thing is to preserve the structure, the hierarchy,
   even if the gaps are not filled in

   shane: what I pasted in is the bit where she is wrong

   mark: I will double check that
   ... the mere presence the property will complete the hanging triple
   ... so what she says is correct

   shane: I think that the spec says explicitly that the bnode should
   be used only if it is used down the line

   mark: the spec says that graph A may be generated but it is not
   required
   ... the question is whether the first triple should be generated
   ... ie whether the hanging triple should be completed

   shane: I do not feel this is what the spec says

   mark: but there may be a mistake; the whole point of the default
   graph idea is to make such issues valid
   ... maybe people can have a read of the spec, I think that triple
   should be generated
   ... very end of step 4 with the skip element flag
   ... and that is reused at point 10
   ... maybe people should look at it with their own implementation

   manu: meeting adjurned

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors'
   guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns
   algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force"
   email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace
   preservation [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
     [26] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [27] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
     [28] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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     _________________________________________________________

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-- 

Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf


Received on Thursday, 17 September 2009 16:08:22 GMT

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