W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org > September 2009

Re: Meeting minutes, 2009-09-17

From: Mark Birbeck <mark.birbeck@webbackplane.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:50:52 +0100
Message-ID: <640dd5060909170950w617e14c7n34fe7b7e6808a8e5@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Cc: W3C RDFa task force <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Hi Ivan,

I was also present. (I may need an alibi.)

Regards,

Mark

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
> Manu had to run to the HTML5 meeting, so I cleaned up the minutes.
>
> Here they are online:
>
> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html
>
> and the text version is below.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ivan
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
>   [1]W3C
>
>      [1] http://www.w3.org/
>
>                        RDF in XHTML Task Force
>
> 17 Sep 2009
>
>   [2]Agenda
>
>      [2]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0147.html
>
>   See also: [3]IRC log
>
>      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc
>
> Attendees
>
>   Present
>          Manu_Sporny, Steven_Pemberton, Ivan_Herman, Ben_Adida,
>          Shane_McCarron
>
>   Regrets
>   Chair
>          Ben_Adida
>
>   Scribe
>          Manu_Sporny
>
> Contents
>
>     * [4]Contents
>          + [5]Action Items
>               o [6]XMLLiteral issue
>               o [7]Charter related issues
>          + [8]ISSUE-236: Clarify the meaning of "ignore"
>     * [9]Summary of Action Items
>     _________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>   <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
>
>   <msporny> scribenick: msporny
>
>   Previous: [10]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html
>
>     [10] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html
>
> Action Items
>
>   <benadida> manu: yes, call at 12pm eastern on HTML and RDFa FPWD
>
>   manu: I'll be on that call
>
>   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns
>   algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in
>   [11]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [DONE]
>
>     [11] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
>
>   <benadida> -->
>   [12]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript
>
>     [12] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript
>
>   ben: it will work in HTML5, but not XHTML5
>
>   <benadida> ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on
>   implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in
>   [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
>
>   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force"
>   email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in
>   [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]
>
>     [14] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
>
> XMLLiteral issue
>
>   ben: The issue may not be done.
>   ... This is about XMLLiteral c14n -- is it RDFa's job or the SPARQL
>   processors job?
>
>   ivan: Let's try to close this issue.
>   ... SPARQL spec doesn't say that it does c14n
>   ... what this boils down to is that the Test Cases, the SPARQL code
>   that we use should have the canonicalized XML in it.
>   ... the test cases are more liberal than they should be when it
>   comes to c14n
>
>   manu: I don't know if the spec is correct.
>
>   ivan: Canonical XML states that we should insert the namespaces that
>   are used in the literal, and nothing more.
>
>   manu: We might give a different impression to implementers
>
>   ivan: We might want to clarify things as well in a future editors
>   spec.
>
>   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace
>   preservation [recorded in
>   [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [DONE]
>
>     [15] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>
>   <benadida> -->
>   [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009S
>   ep/0158.html
>
>     [16]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0158.html
>
>   manu: The test case issues are outlined in that e-mail
>   ... the other issue is the c14n vs. proper XMLLiteral RDFa
>   preservation.
>
>   ben: Yes, there is an issue here and the issue is slightly larger
>   than RDFa.
>
>   ivan: The SPARQL group are considering an official errata for RDF to
>   address this issue.
>   ... This is an issue that came about years ago, but we need to deal
>   with it.
>
>   ben: So, what is the path forward.
>
>   <benadida> [17]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter
>
>     [17] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter
>
>   manu: Accept c14n XMLLiteral definition and accept that we won't be
>   able to preserve namespaces for RDFa in XMLLiterals
>
> Charter related issues
>
>   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded
>   in [18]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
>   [DONE]
>
>     [18] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>
>   ivan: Let's put the charter off for 6-8 weeks. We're not under huge
>   pressure to do that.
>
>   ben: I don't think we should submit the charter now, but we
>   shouldn't delay it.
>
>   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss schedule
>
>   shane: I'm the one who pushed schedule because these things take
>   time.
>
>   ivan: If we do this in November, this shouldn't be an issue.
>
>   <benadida> msporny: sam ruby and doug schepers have offered to host
>   an RDFa TF in HTML and SVG WGs.
>
>   <benadida> ben: I'm not convinced that this is a good idea yet.
>
>   ivan: A Task Force between two working groups work well when two
>   groups are friendly with each other.
>   ... It's also more administration overhead.
>   ... I'd prefer the RDFa Core work to stay in SWD.
>
>   <markbirbeck> Should also add that it works when the two groups are
>   complementary to each other.
>
>   ivan: There are things that we may plan to do that have nothing to
>   do with HTML.
>
>   <markbirbeck> Which is not the case here.
>
>   ben: One thing we should try to steer clear of anything that doesn't
>   follow W3C process.
>   ... We should be collaborating with HTML WG.
>   ... We should strive to be true to W3C process.
>
>   ivan: Let's wait and see how the HTML+RDFa FPWD works out. If it
>   works, then that would be best.
>
> ISSUE-236: Clarify the meaning of "ignore"
>
>   ben: We depend on rel with a bad value and the absence of rel as
>   being different.
>   ... We do not do the same for @typeof.
>
>   Ivan can you scribe?
>
>   I can clean up the minutes afterwards
>
>   <ivan> scribenick: ivan
>
>   mark: when I made all the changes to cleanup curie processing, then
>   I might have missed this
>
>   shane: wait...
>
>   mark: I think the discussion on the list is pretty good
>
>   shane: ben said rel="" and rel="rubbish" is not the same thing
>
>   mark: if I completely remove rel from an element, then there is no
>   hanging stuff kick in
>   ... if there is a rel, then the mechanism does kick in
>
>   shane: the real issue is with datatypes
>   ... and with typeof
>   ... typeof does not have a special behaviour for typeof=""
>
>   mark: the issue does originate from the datatype handling
>   ... during the course of discussion I discovered that typeof does
>   not behave like we meant it
>   ... there are two issues: (1) datatypes and (2) typeof
>
>   shane: our intent is clear
>   ... and all implementations that passed the tests did it like we
>   intended
>   ... we can put the two phrases into the places where it needs it
>   then we are done
>
>   manu: do we feel that we have a clear text that we can put in? Did
>   we check that against the test cases?
>   ... there might have to add some new test cases
>   ... i do not know what my parser would do...
>
>   mark: the key thing is that it creates a b node
>
>   shane: the final piece here is where jeni is incorrect
>   ... if there is typeof, it generates a bnode, but that one is not
>   used as a subject of another triple
>
>   mark: but it can complete hanging triples
>
>   <ShaneM> Jeni says in an email:
>
>   <ShaneM> In the case of
>
>   <ShaneM> <p xmlns:ex="[19]http://example.org/"
>   about="[20]http://example.com/" rel="ex:rel3">
>
>     [19] http://example.org/
>     [20] http://example.com/
>
>   <ShaneM>    <span property="bogus:bogus" content="Content 3">
>
>   <ShaneM>      <span about="[21]http://example.net/">Test 3</span>
>
>     [21] http://example.net/
>
>   <ShaneM>    </span>
>
>   <ShaneM>  </p>
>
>   <ShaneM> by the same argument, we should create:
>
>   <ShaneM> Default graph:
>
>   <ShaneM>   <[22]http://example.com/> <[23]http://example.org/rel3>
>   _:a .
>
>     [22] http://example.com/%3E
>     [23] http://example.org/rel3%3E
>
>   <ShaneM> Graph A:
>
>   <ShaneM>   _:a bogus:bogus "Content 3" .
>
>   mark: the key thing is to preserve the structure, the hierarchy,
>   even if the gaps are not filled in
>
>   shane: what I pasted in is the bit where she is wrong
>
>   mark: I will double check that
>   ... the mere presence the property will complete the hanging triple
>   ... so what she says is correct
>
>   shane: I think that the spec says explicitly that the bnode should
>   be used only if it is used down the line
>
>   mark: the spec says that graph A may be generated but it is not
>   required
>   ... the question is whether the first triple should be generated
>   ... ie whether the hanging triple should be completed
>
>   shane: I do not feel this is what the spec says
>
>   mark: but there may be a mistake; the whole point of the default
>   graph idea is to make such issues valid
>   ... maybe people can have a read of the spec, I think that triple
>   should be generated
>   ... very end of step 4 with the skip element flag
>   ... and that is reused at point 10
>   ... maybe people should look at it with their own implementation
>
>   manu: meeting adjurned
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors'
>   guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in
>   [24]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
>
>   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in
>   [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
>   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns
>   algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in
>   [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
>   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force"
>   email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in
>   [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
>   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace
>   preservation [recorded in
>   [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
>
>     [25] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>     [26] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
>     [27] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
>     [28] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>
>   [End of minutes]
>     _________________________________________________________
>
>
>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.135
>    ([30]CVS log)
>    $Date: 2009/09/17 16:11:05 $
>     _________________________________________________________
>
>     [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>     [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
>
> --
>
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>



-- 
Mark Birbeck, webBackplane

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http://webBackplane.com/mark-birbeck

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Received on Thursday, 17 September 2009 16:51:37 GMT

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