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Re: Thoughts on @href/@resource completing hanging @rels

From: Mark Birbeck <mark.birbeck@formsPlayer.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:00:49 +0000
Message-ID: <a707f8300801211800j2147052eobbbc1a4ef918e15c@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Manu Sporny" <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Cc: "RDFa mailing list" <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>

Hi Manu/Ben,

I do agree with Manu here, but also I recall that Ivan reached a
position where he said that this may be less of an issue than he
thought.

I'm not trying to put words into his mouth, merely to say that we have
probably reached a point where we might as well vote, since I'm not
sure that much more is going to be added to this discussion. So unless
those who have remained quiet on this issue up until now have points
they want to raise, then it would certainly save a lot of time if we
could wrap at least one of these issues up.

Regards,

Mark

On 21/01/2008, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com> wrote:
>
> Ben Adida wrote:
> > Manu Sporny wrote:
> >> As for spurious triples in newly created XHTML+RDFa pages, well, there
> >> is no such thing.
> >
> > I disagree with this statement quite strongly. People won't write
> > XHTML+RDFa from scratch. They'll start with XHTML and sprinkle in RDFa
> > progressively.
>
> Then I must strongly disagree with your statement which strongly
> disagrees with my previous statement :)
>
> We all agree that moving XHTML around is a gigantic pain and should be
> avoided at all reasonable costs... however, I have a large sample set of
> people proving that folks are quite agreeable to moving their XHTML
> around when the benefits outweigh the costs:
>
> Microformats
>
> Additionally, we had to go through and restructure all of our corporate
> and service websites when we decided to add Microformats to our website.
> Most of the people I know that have added Microformats to their page
> (lots) have had to div-span-itize their sites. Most websites generate
> the XHTML using PHP (or ASP, or Ruby, or <insert web language du jour
> here>), so, this is not as big of a deal as it may seem.
>
> Sure, a couple of our web developers griped that they shouldn't have to
> move stuff around to make Microformats work... but they did move the
> XHTML around because the benefits far outweighed the cost of doing so.
>
> Besides, as I stated, we never had <div> and <span> tags around the data
> on our pages... we had to change the XHTML structure just to enable
> semantics on our pages.
>
> Which, like it or not, the vast majority of people adopting Microformats
> or RDFa will have to do.
>
> > They will add a hanging @rel, and if that suddenly forces them to
> > restructure large chunks of HTML because they can't include plain
> > images
> > and links within that chunk, that reflects poorly on RDFa as a whole.
> > This has already happened with Creative Commons.
>
> I very strongly disagree... if adding a hanging @rel screws things up...
> they'll remove that hanging rel before restructuring their XHTML
> (because that is the easiest thing to do).
>
> Is it really that difficult to tell people that if they start seeing
> wierd triples generated, that they should move their hanging @rel down
> to the thing that should be generating the triple?
>
> Do you really think that people won't have tools in their browser (like
> Operator) to check to see if they are generating the proper triples?
>
> > That's typically what happens with RDF/XML, btw. Adding a few properties
> > is easy, but then you start striping and it gets *really* messy, and
> > many people give up.
>
> Seeing the number of people struggling to mark up very complex use cases
> using Microformats tells me that people don't give up that easily.
> Rather, the people that give up must not have much to gain by marking up
> their data using Microformats OR RDFa.
>
> I think that we shouldn't forget that chaining is an advanced RDFa
> concept and thus, has some complex issues that come along with it. Those
> complex issues are very easy to address:
>
> Either you
>   a) don't use hanging @rels, or
>   b) understand that @about/@href/@resource completes hanging @rels.
>
> The paragraph above is quite easy to express and understand - meaning it
> can be taught quite easily. If we turn this into an education problem
> instead of a language problem, we simplify teaching, developing and
> using RDFa. It is a good trade-off, IMHO.
>
> -- manu
>
> --
> Manu Sporny
> President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
> blog: Intro to the Semantic Web in 6 minutes (video)
> http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2007/12/26/semantic-web-intro
>
>


-- 
  Mark Birbeck, formsPlayer

  mark.birbeck@formsPlayer.com | +44 (0) 20 7689 9232
  http://www.formsPlayer.com | http://internet-apps.blogspot.com

  standards. innovation.
Received on Tuesday, 22 January 2008 02:01:06 GMT

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