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Re: Summary of @href/@resource completing triples issue (v2.0)

From: Mark Birbeck <mark.birbeck@formsPlayer.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:09:21 +0000
Message-ID: <a707f8300801100409y2c8f1b5el317bfb535ad16c0e@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org>
Cc: "Manu Sporny" <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>, RDFa <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>

Hi Ivan,

I haven't made a big deal out of it, at all. :) And if it's no longer
the big deal that it was two days ago, I'm pleased to hear it.

Regards,

Mark

On 10/01/2008, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> I think you put way too much into my words and/or I was
> misunderstandable... Sorry about that.
>
> I do _not_ want to come back to the usage of @href in general *at all*.
> What I meant was:
>
> - we *may* consider it a special case when @href appears in an element
> without any other RDFa elements (yes, this would include @rel/@rev and I
> agree this would weaken this case)
> - *if* we do that then, and *if* we give a high priority to the
> @resource/@href symmetry then we would impose the same restriction on
> @resource but we could decide to break this symmetry on that point.
>
> Ie,
>
> <div href="#a><span rel="a:b" resource="#b"/></div>
>
> and
>
> <div resource="#a><span rel="a:b" resource="#b"/></div>
>
> would *not* behave the same way, ie, the first would not generate any
> triple whereas the second would.
>
> That is all. Let us not make a big deal out of this one.
>
> Ivan
>
> Mark Birbeck wrote:
> > Hi Ivan,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >> No big deal, but nevertheless... I guess the issue here is that the
> >> usage of @href is overloaded in RDFa for clickable and RDF reasons and
> >> that may lead to problems. And that is why my initial instinct was to
> >> say that @href "does" something in RDFa-land only when it appears with
> >> some other RDFa attribute (ie, the user knows what he/she is doing...)
> >>
> >> I am not saying it is a big issue, and we may live with that. I just
> >> wanted to air my discomfort, and thereby adding to the overall confusion
> >> before we get too tired:-)
> >>
> >> Of course, the argument above does not apply if I use @resource. Ben was
> >> asking somewhere whether we should consider the symmetry of @href and
> >> @resource as immutable, and that is a valid question of course...
> >> Although I believe we should try to keep these two together...
> >
> > But this is the key question that is under discussion, so I think you
> > do need to say whether you can live with it or not...and whether it is
> > a "big issue" or not.
> >
> > As I said in another post, if this _is_ a "big issue" for you, then
> > the only truly consistent way out of this is to remove @href from the
> > RDFa attribute list altogether.
> >
> > I know that you are saying that we _could_ just limit @href's
> > operation to only apply when another RDFa attribute is present, but I
> > assume you are including @rel and @rev in that list? And as I
> > explained yesterday, since they are HTML attributes independent of
> > RDFa, it just leaves exactly the same issue that you are uncomfortable
> > with; you still can't mark things up in a 'standard' HTML way, in a
> > way that will not generate a triple.
> >
> > But as I also said, that approach takes us back 4 years! The
> > incorporation of @href into RDFa is what led to Ben's 'bridging the
> > clickable and semantic webs' formulation that we all love to quote.
> >
> > So either we're going to bridge the two webs, or we're not.
> >
> > These are hard decisions, I know, but we need to have some balls here
> > (if you'll excuse the expression) and make the leap. The whole reason
> > that RDF and HTML were never integrated prior to the RDFa proposals
> > was that everyone was always avoiding the bold step of actually
> > changing HTML. But someone has to take that bold step at some point,
> > and I thought it was going to be us. It is simply not possible to
> > fulfil a requirement that @href generates triples, at the same time
> > that it does not generate triples...we're bounded by logic here. :)
> >
> > You need to say how big an issue this is for you, and if it's not that
> > big a deal we should get on and bridge those webs.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
> --
>
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>
>


-- 
  Mark Birbeck, formsPlayer

  mark.birbeck@formsPlayer.com | +44 (0) 20 7689 9232
  http://www.formsPlayer.com | http://internet-apps.blogspot.com

  standards. innovation.
Received on Thursday, 10 January 2008 12:09:29 GMT

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