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RE: Feedback on RDFa Primer

From: Hausenblas, Michael <michael.hausenblas@joanneum.at>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 00:24:34 +0200
Message-ID: <768DACDC356ED04EA1F1130F97D29852012A4941@RZJC2EX.jr1.local>
To: "Mark Birbeck" <mark.birbeck@formsPlayer.com>, "Manu Sporny" <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Cc: "RDFa" <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>


Mark,

> One last thing is that I think we need a few graphics in 
> there. I wish I could draw, because I think RDFa could be 
> explained visually, *very* easily.

I volunteer to draw, if you tell me WHAT to draw :)

I don't claim I do it good, but I already have done
it once or twice, for example in [1], [2], [3].

Cheers,
	Michael

[1] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/RDFCoverage
[2] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/LiteralObject
[3] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/

----------------------------------------------------------
 Michael Hausenblas, MSc.
 Institute of Information Systems & Information Management
 JOANNEUM RESEARCH Forschungsgesellschaft mbH
 Steyrergasse 17, A-8010 Graz, AUSTRIA
---------------------------------------------------------- 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of 
> Mark Birbeck
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 12:13 AM
> To: Manu Sporny
> Cc: RDFa
> Subject: Re: Feedback on RDFa Primer
> 
> 
> Hi Manu,
> 
> These are all interesting points, and I would agree with 
> most. I especially like the idea of linking through to more 
> detailed documents that relate to the kinds of tasks that 
> authors want to perform.
> 
> But I would slightly disagree with (a) the idea that triples 
> should be brought to the front, and (b) that there are too 
> many HTML examples.
> 
> Whilst the 'goal' of RDFa is certainly to allow RDF to be 
> 'carried' by any XML-based language, at the moment the clear 
> focus is HTML/XHTML.
> You could say that we're dealing with a dialect of RDFa, namely
> XHTML+RDFa.
> 
> This dialect is actually much easier to explain than a more 
> general RDFa syntax, since HTML already has a number of 
> metadata features that people use every day, and they do so 
> without having to understand triples. Just about every HTML 
> author is already familiar with <meta> and <link> for 
> example. There's less awareness of of the use of @rel and 
> @rev on <a>, but it's still something that is not far out of 
> people's experience.
> 
> So if the primer was to change, I would argue for it to 
> change so that it begins with examples that are almost purely 
> ordinary HTML, to remind people of the status quo. Then we'd 
> explain triples, but merely as a kind of shorthand for 
> expressing the metadata that we're able to create. The main 
> point we'd be making is 'look, you've already been doing this 
> stuff for years'.
> 
> After that I'd suggest that we gradually incorporate the new 
> attributes, beginning with @property, @content and @datatype 
> (very easy to understand), before moving on to @instanceof (a 
> bit trickier, but not that bad), and of course @about.
> 
> One last thing is that I think we need a few graphics in 
> there. I wish I could draw, because I think RDFa could be 
> explained visually, *very* easily.
> 
> Thanks for the great input.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> On 30/08/2007, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ben, here's some extra feedback on the RDFa primer[1]. In 
> general, all 
> > of the information in there is important, but I believe it 
> needs to be 
> > restructured to deliver the RDFa message more clearly. I am not 
> > familiar with W3C Primer document requirements, so these 
> suggestions 
> > might fly in the face of what is required by the W3C for a 
> Primer document.
> >
> > Personal Experience
> > -------------------
> >
> > Not having much experience with RDF/RDFa, I started a month 
> ago with 
> > the RDFa Primer... which I stopped reading after the 4th 
> page because 
> > I thought I was in the wrong place. It's 15 pages of 
> printed text (in 
> > 10 point font). I was hoping for an introductory document and felt 
> > that I had found the RDFa syntax document.
> >
> > Goals for the Primer
> > --------------------
> >
> > - It should express how simple and powerful RDFa is, and it 
> should do
> >   this in one to two pages. The rest should focus on refining
> >   understanding.
> > - We want to reassure everybody that you don't need to be a website
> >   designer to use RDFa:
> >       "If you can write HTML, RDFa will be a piece of cake."
> > - Focus on RDFa concepts, not on RDFa syntax.
> > - Use very minimalistic examples to get the concept across.
> > - Give readers the option of delving into more thorough examples if
> >   desired... but don't require it to understand RDFa basics.
> >
> > Current Problems with the Primer
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > - Does not explain what an RDF Triple is up-front. 
> Understanding Triples
> >   is vital to understanding how RDFa works.
> > - Too many HTML examples.
> > - Too many technical/syntax details.
> >
> > Ideal Layout
> > ------------
> >
> > - Why RDFa is Useful (1-2 paragraphs)
> > - Short Example of RDFa Markup (1-2 paragraphs, use FOAF)
> > - Explanation of Triples (2-3 paragraphs)
> > - Show which Triples are generated with the FOAF example above
> > - How Web Browsers Use the Generated Triples
> > - Explain @about, @instanceof, @resource in more detail.
> > - Links to External Use Cases
> >    - Publishing An Event
> >    - Publishing Contact Information
> >    - The Complete HTML with RDFa
> >    - RDFa with Limited HTML control
> >    - foaf
> >    - ical
> >    - vcard-rdf
> >    - haudio-rdf
> >    - shutr
> > - Bibliography
> > - Acknowledgements
> >
> > The document should probably be no greater than 5-6 
> pages... which I 
> > think is very do-able. I could re-arrange the current primer as a 
> > further example, if you'd like?
> >
> > Perhaps we should think of a couple of supporting 
> documents... where 
> > do you go once you've read the primer? My thought, is that 
> you go to 
> > one of the examples/external use case pages. But where 
> after that? The 
> > RDFa Syntax and Reference Manual?
> >
> > I'm posting this to the mailing list because I might be missing 
> > something very basic, or my understanding of what a primer should 
> > accomplish might not be in line with what others on this list think.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > -- manu
> >
> > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
>   Mark Birbeck, formsPlayer
> 
>   mark.birbeck@formsPlayer.com | +44 (0) 20 7689 9232
>   http://www.formsPlayer.com | http://internet-apps.blogspot.com
> 
>   standards. innovation.
> 
> 
Received on Thursday, 30 August 2007 22:25:22 GMT

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