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meeting record: 2005-04-05 RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:53:12 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050405115024.02227978@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

The minutes of today's meeting are http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes

What follows is a text snapshot of revision 1.2 $Date: 2005/04/05 15:47:33 $
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                         SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

5 Apr 2005

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0000.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Steven Pemberton, Jeremy
          Carroll

   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Status of XHTML Last Call
         2. [6]Status of Action Items from SWBPD F2F
         3. [7]Next Meeting
         4. [8]GRDDL
     * [9]Summary of Action Items

     _________________________________________________________________

Status of XHTML Last Call

   Steven: the latest [10]editor's draft is built nightly, not yet
   uploaded to W3C site
   ... please take a look and give us feedback
   ... the area we're having problems with still is blank nodes
   ... we want to create anonymous nodes and give them names independent
   of URLs
   ... for this one little edge case it seems a new naming and
   referencing mechanism needs to be created
   ... e.g. aboutblank and hrefblank
   ... and we need a way to give a (blank) name to an element
   ... in RDF/A there was a proposed XPointer framework for referring to
   blank nodes and a naming mechanism
   ... the problem with this XPointer framework solution was that we'd
   have to create a spec for it, as it's not defined anywhere

     [10] http://hades.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/mod-metaAttributes.html#s_metaAttributesmodule

   Mark: we could simply define that XPointer framework as in the RDF/A
   draft -- we don't have to go all the way back to XPointer
   ... the framework makes use of the XPointer architecture
   ... we could define this in our spec, don't need to go back to
   XPointer WG

   Jeremy: I didn't like the RDF/A XPointer solution
   ... I found it "ugly"
   ... one nodeID attribute is sufficient; no need for extra hrefblank
   ... what's hard is providing text for an HTML author who is not
   RDF-aware to motivate this nodeID attribute

   Steven: you're suggesting a nodeID attribute that simultaneously
   defines and references?

   Jeremy: yes
   ... in the [October] RDF/A proposal, if there was not a subject in the
   triple then it was inherited from the context
   ... if nodeID expresses the subject it's possible to default the
   object and vice-versa
   ... while clunky, this achieves the goal of being able to express all
   of RDF without making things too complicated for an HTML author
   ... [the spec is] affected by the complexity of the mapping rules from
   the XHTML attributes to RDF
   ... I felt the [October] RDF/A mapping rules were a bit too complex

   Mark: I came up with the XPointer solution because I'm pretty sure we
   do need two attributes
   ... RDF/XML does not need two attributes due to its striping syntax
   ... in the XHTML mechanism we've tried to make it possible to write a
   complete triple in a single element
   ... Jeremy's suggested defaulting mechanism may work but I'm pretty
   sure there are cases where you still need two attributes
   ... it's also an aesthetic problem for bnodes to have URIs that are
   not supposed to be considered as URIs

   Ben: is the bnode section in this editor's draft yet?

   Steven: no. the document I cited has RDF/A transformed into XHTML2
   style except for the bnode material
   ... we've been struggling with finding some mechanism for bnodes that
   is more aesthetic and that is explicable to HTML authors without
   referring to the term "bnode"

   Jeremy: I agree with that objective

   Mark: why would an author use anything other than id="A" and id="B" to
   refer to anonymous nodes?
   ... why should I [as a document author] be worried about any outside
   use of those names?
   ... e.g. I use those names locally, but why should I prevent them from
   use outside?
   ... I think this is a concern more to RDF folk than to an HTML author

   Ben: let's move this discussion to e-mail

   Jeremy: at the March face-to-face, Steven suggested that XHTML2 would
   go to Last Call without addressing this particular issue

   ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action01]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action01

   Steven: we don't expect any given XHTML spec to have addressed all
   open issues; we simply have to freeze a document and count remaining
   open issues as Last Call issues
   ... if we didn't do this we'd never get a document out the door;
   people are always reading new drafts and bringing new issues

   Ralph: are the words in the editors' draft now fairly stable? would a
   careful review be a waste of time?

   Steven: not a waste of time
   ... people are fixing schema errors now
   ... but up to publication there is always the chance of changes

   ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in
   XHTML 2 [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action02]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action02

   Steven: the [13]editors' draft cited above has dealt with all the
   issues from the HTML WG F2F

     [13] http://hades.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/mod-metaAttributes.html#s_metaAttributesmodule

Status of Action Items from SWBPD F2F

   ACTION: BenA to Examples in RDF/XHTML and RDF/XML - use cases
   [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action03] reworded
   below]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action03

   Ben: any specific examples you'd like to see, or just use cases?

   Steven: use cases good

   Mark: it is OK to give RDF/XML examples and we'll translate them
   ... most of the larger examples I've done have been based on RSS and
   FOAF. These might not express everything

   ACTION: BenA Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to
   Steven and Mark (use cases) [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action04]
   [CONTINUES]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action04

   ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML
   in their respective communities [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action05]
   [CONTINUES]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action05

   ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements [recorded
   in [17]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
   [CONTINUES]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action06

Next Meeting

   Ben: let's plan to meet weekly, even if it's a short meeting

   next meeting: 12 April, 1400 UTC

GRDDL

   Ben: discussing f2f feedback; do we need to address a pre-XHTML2
   solution?

   Jeremy: I'll take an action to get HP feedback

   ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to
   RDF-in-HTML problem [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action07]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action07

   Ben: Dan and Dom did a new [19]editor's draft for GRDDL

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec

   Ralph: I read the new draft but didn't look at the diffs

   Ben: what I gleaned from the email is that typos were fixed
   ... and specifying what happens if more than one transform is given
   within a document

   Ralph: Dave Beckett [20]announced an implementation
   ... Dave asked if multiple tranformations yield a single graph
   ... Dom answered in the affirmative

     [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0001.html

   Ben: what communities do we need to approach?

   ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and
   pre-XHTML2 [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action08]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action08

   Ralph: Creative Commons and Dublin Core are still in the top of our
   list.
   ... we could grow the list but at least we need those two responses

   <Zakim> Jeremy, you wanted to summarize changelog and to discuss
   possible questions to users

   Jeremy: I see only editorial changes in the [22]GRDDL changelog
   ... should I be asking HP "Is GRDDL useful" or "Do we need a solution
   to embedding RDF before XHTML2"?

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#changes

   Ben: I think the latter; do we need a solution before XHTML2 and if
   so, is GRDDL a good way to do this?

   Jeremy: the vast majority of HTML on the web is ill-formed, not XML
   ... if we're seeking user feedback, it's up to them to define the
   scope

   Ben: I think it's good to cast a wide net to find out user
   expectations
   ... this task force may not last long enough to provide every
   solution, but please ask

   Ralph: Dave Beckett's GRDDL implementation partly answers some
   questions that Ivan Herman raised in a hallway conversation at the
   March F2F
   ... note that the GRDDL spec says transformations SHOULD be XSLT, not
   MUST
   ... so implementations have to be careful

Summary of Action Items

   ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to
   Steven and Mark (use cases)
   [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action04]
   ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
   ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML
   in their respective communities
   [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list.
   [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A
   included in XHTML 2
   [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and
   pre-XHTML2
   [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action08]
   [NEW] ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to
   RDF-in-HTML problem
   [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action07]
   [End of minutes]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action04
     [24] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action06
     [25] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action05
     [26] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action01
     [27] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action02
     [28] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action08
     [29] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action07

     _________________________________________________________________


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