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meeting record: 2004-10-29 HTML TF

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:51:22 -0400
Message-Id: <>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

                          SemWeb BPD HTML Task Force
                                  29 Oct 2004


   See also: [3]IRC log


          Ralph Swick, Jeremy Carroll, Dan Connolly, Ben Adida

          Mark Birbeck



   Previous: 2004-10-22


     * Topics
         1. Action review
         2. Jeremy's XSLT2 implementation of RDF/A
         3. Jeremy's Comments on RDF/A
     * Summary of Action Items

   ACTION: Ben report back to HTML WG on our evaluation of RDF/A

Action review

   ACTION BenA assesses impact of namespace and media type change on CC
   BenA: talked with Mike, CTO of CC
   ... happy to have an XHTML 2 solution but we expect adoption to not be
   ... CC has to decide how to move to a notation that will be
   XHTML2-compliant and that is going to at least render correctly in
   current deployed browsers and ideally that would validate
   ... may adopt the current RDF/A syntax inside our recommended HTML
   BenA: ... regarding literals, considering Jeremy's comments it appears
   we are in fine shape
   ... we don't see a need for XML literals
   ... we do need plain literals

   <DanC> (hmm... is there an XHTML2 validation service yet?)

   JJC: do you care about having to duplicate content?

   BenA: I am a big supporter of not having to duplicate content, yes

   action complete

   ACTION BenA determine CC requirement with respect to literals
   -- complete (see above)

   ACTION BenA to find someone to determine requirement with respect
   to FOAF and literals
   BenA: will be contacting Dan Brickley
   action withdrawn, replaced with ACTION JJC below

   ACTION JJC to check nodeID and bnode issues
   -- completed

   ACTION: JJC contact Dan Brickley to determine requirement
   with respect to FOAF and literals

   ACTION Steven and Mark to add about="" to example 6.1 (CC)
   [10]http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html appears to have last
   been modified on 2004-09-22
   -- continues

   ACTION DanC: ask for contact from SHOE/DAML/OWL "how do I put this in
   my web page?" community
   -- continues

   DanC: what is the time window for getting a SHOE/DAML/OWL person into
   the discussion and up to speed?

   BenA: HTML WG meets f2f week after next and hopes to go to Last Call
   shortly thereafter

   JJC: want to talk about complexity. This may hurt the HTML WG schedule

   DanC: GRDDL does not depend on the HTML WG taking further action

   Ralph: I fully expect this TF to come back to GRDDL discussions once
   we've gotten our feedback to the HTML WG

Jeremy's XSLT2 implementation of RDF/A


   JJC: I just updated the XSLT2 implementation and now believe it to be
   a complete implementation of RDF/A except for the bnode() Xpointer

   DanC: I suggest recruiting a reviewer, or at least an alpha tester

   ACTION: Ben test JJC's implementation on CC cases

   <jjc> (oh there's a bug to do with whitespace within XMLLiterals)

   JJC: the key goal of the implementation was to have a clear mapping
   from the document to the code
   ... the critical sections (4 and 5) correspond paragraph-by-paragraph

   <DanC> (hmm... is it worth putting the "simple rules using XPath
   expressions" in the RDF/A spec?)

   JJC: there are two transformations from the doc to the final XSLT2
   ... it's meant to be obvious where to change the code if the spec is

Jeremy's Comments on RDF/A

   RDF/A review summary [Jeremy 2004-10-28]

   JJC: the I18N WG raised a formal objection to the RDF Core's decision
   on xml:lang in XML Literals

   <DanC> (my instinct would be to get the RDF/A spec to the point where
   the rules could be scraped from it, ala "ical RDF schema: derived from
   the RFC"

   JJC: RDF Core decided to simplify XML Literals so they were just like
   other datatypes w/o an xml:lang
   ... using <span> to add xml:lang back when necessary
   ... if RDF/A goes to Last Call as currently written the I18N folk are
   likely to again raise a strong objection

   DanC: I don't care much about the details until I hear someone
   actually using a feature
   ... RDF Core spent a year on the details of language tagging and I'm
   not aware of anyone using it
   ... people are creating new properties

   JJC: we have Jena users using xml:lang

   BenA: tempted to say this is not in our scope
   ... as the same problem occurs in RDF/XML

   JJC: within RDF/XML the authors are explicitly told that xml:lang is
   not in scope and if they want it they must include it explicitly
   ... whereas with XHTML the expectation is that xml:lang is in scope
   ... e.g. language-dependent stylesheets would be expected to work
   inside this XML markup

   DanC: consider the W3C translation system as a use case
   ... I think Ivan Herman is the person responsible for the W3C
   translations database
   ... think he maintains that by hand, not by automated scraping
   ... I18N WG might be able to point to use cases
   ... we could point out to the HTML WG the risks of this current

   JJC: I have a solution, which doesn't require the HTML author to do
   anything more; the mapping (XSLT) adds the <span>

   RESOLVED to point out to HTML WG the risk of I18N objections to the
   RDF/A handling of xml:lang but that we feel a solution exists that
   requires no additional work for HTML authors

   JJC: regarding literals ...
   ... last week people were interested in having plain literals in
   element content


   <DanC> datatypes + in-line plain literals

   JJC: my suggestion is to take the xpath text if there is other markup
   present; i.e. ignore the markup

   DanC: example would be more compelling if it used something other than
   <meta>, as <meta> is already special

   JJC: this would be easy to implement; didn't do it in order to stay
   strictly to the written spec
   ... two ways to denote a plain literal in element content
   ... 1. special datatype 2. separate attribute

   DanC: I prefer a separate attribute, as the type of the datatype
   attribute is QName

   Ralph: we could make a plain literal QName

   JJC: in RDF plain literals have a lang tag so they're not typed
   ... prefer separate attribute approach

   <DanC> (yes, "ugh" applies to almost all aspecs of datatypes in RDF.)

   <jjc> .//text()
   <jjc> takes the text() nodes of descendenents

   <DanC> yes, let's ask them to replace the metainfo module with RDF/A

   RESOLVED to propose to HTML WG a 'plain="true"' attribute for
   expressing plain literals in element content

   PROPOSE We find RDF/A a big step forward and encourage the HTML WG to
   use it in place of the 22 July metainformation module. Our detailed
   criticism of RDF/A is intended to helpfurther improve this work toward
   the long-standing needs of the RDF deployment community to mix
   semantic web data with HTML documents.

   (consensus among the 4 of us)

   <benadida> ACTION: BenA to write up a version of the above and send to

   <DanC> Connolly 2nds that and trusts ben to stay in that

   JJC: there are quite a number of ways to determine subjects and
   objects and the objects are particularly complicated
   ... it's very hard to keep track of this all
   ... my implementation does keep track in an elegant way that is hugely
   ... the resulting complexity is too much for humans to understand and
   sufficiently hard that programs will frequently be wrong as well
   ... getting rid of the the predicate inheritance rules would help some
   ... the subject rules amount to 8 different ways to determine a
   ... this is a lot but not too bad
   ... in paragraph 4.4.3 there is a rule
   ... different treatment for link & meta elements than all other
   ... most of the examples in RDF/A actually produce more triples than
   the authors intend
   ... the current draft is good but not yet REC-quality
   ... it's not yet clear which rules need to be removed; this is a
   complex language design issue

   JJC: the essential idea of 4.4.3 introduces a huge complexity
   JJC: but I also like 4.4.3 as well

   RESOLVED: the current rules provide more options than needed and
   produce more triples than intended. We offer to work with the HTML WG
   to simplify the rules for determining resource-valued objects

   Discussion during f2f?:
   Ben: I could be available 8:30am-1:00pm EST on Monday

Summary of Action Items

   ACTION: DanC to ask for contact from SHOE/DAML/OWL "how do I put
   ... this in my web page?" community
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben report back to HTML WG on our evaluation of RDF/A
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben test JJC's implementation on CC cases
   [NEW] ACTION: BenA to write up a version of the resolution on RDF/A
   ... and send to list
   [NEW] ACTION: JJC contact Dan Brickley to determine requirement
   ... with respect to FOAF and literals

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [17]scribe.perl 1.90 ([18]CVS log)
    $Date: 2004/08/10 15:51:28 $


   2. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Oct/0048.html
   3. http://www.w3.org/2004/10/29-swbp-irc
   9. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Oct/0024.html
  10. http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html
  11. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Oct/att-0052
  12. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Oct/0047.html
  13. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2004Mar/0007.html
  14. http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Translation/
  15. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Oct/0037
  16. http://www.timeanddate.com/
  17. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribe.perl
  18. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/scribe.perl
Received on Friday, 29 October 2004 19:54:27 UTC

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