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Re: [ENT] Review comments on the SPARQL 1.1. Entailment regime document

From: Axel Polleres <axel.polleres@deri.org>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:17:14 +0100
Cc: "Birte Glimm" <birte.glimm@comlab.ox.ac.uk>, "Sandro Hawke" <sandro@w3.org>, "Chimezie Ogbuji" <ogbujic@ccf.org>, "W3C SPARQL WG" <public-rdf-dawg@w3.org>
Message-Id: <A8A61BFD-D761-4DB4-9BF4-15FF625F053A@deri.org>
To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
+1, yup that would work for me.
 
On 18 May 2010, at 12:31, Ivan Herman wrote:

> +1
> 
> Ivan
> On May 18, 2010, at 13:20 , Birte Glimm wrote:
> 
>> That was my understanding too, i.e., we can also just have an
>> informative section (as RIF) that explains that by using only strongly
>> safe core rules, you get a nice guarantee for finiteness.
>> Birte
>> 
>> On 18 May 2010 09:44, Axel Polleres <axel.polleres@deri.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Ok, I'll leave that one as is until there is further input
>>>>> 
>>>>> I leave that to Axel and Sandro
>>>> 
>>>> Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to follow this for a while.  How
>>>> urgent is this?  Things for me relax a little in two weeks, I think.
>>>> 
>>>> Offhand, I'm unpleasantly surprised that anyone would want to name a
>>>> subset of Core.  Subsetting Core is bad for interoperability.  But maybe
>>>> there are issues I'm missing.
>>> 
>>> If we don't require finiteness any longer, am not sure whether we need an own URI for strongly safe.
>>> We may just want to mention in the text that for strongly safe rulesets consequences will
>>> always be finite without the need for a separate entailment regime.
>>> 
>>> Axel
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 18 May 2010, at 04:54, Sandro Hawke wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Hey Chime,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Quick reply. Unfortunately, I cannot be on the call; I am on my way to =
>>>>> Sweden...
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 17, 2010, at 21:20 , Chimezie Ogbuji wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks for the review Ivan, see responses below for those comments =
>>>>> referring
>>>>>> to my sections.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On 5/12/10 11:04 AM, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>> Section 7
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> At the moment, the http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/ vocabulary does =
>>>>> _not_
>>>>>>> include the
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RIF-RDF-Strongly-Safe-Core
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> but only
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RIF
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> It is easy for me to add this additional URI, but I have to be sure =
>>>>> this is
>>>>>>> o.k. with the RIF group, and whether it is the correct name. And, if =
>>>>> I add
>>>>>>> this, shouldn't I add others? Which ones? Axel, Sandro, can you help =
>>>>> on that?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Ok, I'll leave that one as is until there is further input
>>>>> 
>>>>> I leave that to Axel and Sandro
>>>> 
>>>> Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to follow this for a while.  How
>>>> urgent is this?  Things for me relax a little in two weeks, I think.
>>>> 
>>>> Offhand, I'm unpleasantly surprised that anyone would want to name a
>>>> subset of Core.  Subsetting Core is bad for interoperability.  But maybe
>>>> there are issues I'm missing.
>>>> 
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>> Section 7.1
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I think we have a pending issue as for which namespace rif:imports is =
>>>>> in. The
>>>>>>> current text does not specifies this at all. There should be a =
>>>>> namespace
>>>>>>> document, too.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I have explicitly designated the following namespace URI:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>           http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RDF-RIF-imports
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I'm not sure who is responsible for setting up the namespace document, =
>>>>> but
>>>>>> text from this section should be sufficient for the body of such a =
>>>>> document.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am the one maintaining these and Sandro can also do it. That being =
>>>>> said, I am not sure that is the right place to do this. The =
>>>>> .../entailment/XXX URI-s are used designate specific entailment regimes, =
>>>>> and this is something different.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ideally, this predicate should be in the rif namespace, but that would =
>>>>> require, I presume, an agreement from the RIF group (that again falls =
>>>>> into the domain of Sandro and Axel, I am afraid). We may have to mint a =
>>>>> URI of its own, which looks a bit silly....
>>>> 
>>>> I don't see the rif namespace as a problem, if that's where it makes
>>>> sense to put it (whatever it is).  Either the RIF WG is okay with the
>>>> design, in which case it grants permission, or it isn't okay with the
>>>> design, in which case there are much bigger problems than the namespace.
>>>> Of course, the rif namespace is an XML namespace, not (yet) and RDF
>>>> namespace, but I'm hoping to make it both with the RIF-in-RDF encoding.
>>>> 
>>>>   -- Sandro
>>>> 
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>> Section 7.1
>>>>>>> In other words, I cannot dynamically assign rule sets to the dataset. =
>>>>> For a
>>>>>>> user this looks like a serious restriction because that means that =
>>>>> the dataset
>>>>>>> provider dictates the rule sets it has, rather than the user.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Isn't it possible to say that the rdf:imports can also be part of the =
>>>>> BGP and
>>>>>>> has, well, the same semantics of referring to a rule set?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Actually, the same question applies to various OWL regimes, too. Can =
>>>>> I have a
>>>>>>> [] owl:imports <...> in my BGP? Should we allow this?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Per the thread with you and Birte on this, I have not done anything =
>>>>> since a
>>>>>> more fundamental change to the SPARQL syntax would be needed to =
>>>>> facilitate
>>>>>> query-time specification of a ruleset to use (and this was ruled out =
>>>>> early).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well... indeed, Birte convinced me that the current setup is actually =
>>>>> fine, and an import can be done via an extra graph that uses the import. =
>>>>> That being said, I do not understand your last remark: with the =
>>>>> semantics of rif:import one _can_ specify the rule set dynamically at =
>>>>> query time (provided the endpoint is capable of reading an RDF file at =
>>>>> an external URI). And that is the right thing to have!
>>>>> 
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>>> I wonder whether it would be good adding some additional (informal) =
>>>>> text in
>>>>>>> the RIF related text that makes it clear that, although we define the
>>>>>>> entailment regime only in terms of the RIF-Simple, it is possible to =
>>>>> define
>>>>>>> RIF Core rule sets that describe RDFS and even OWL-RL. Ie, with =
>>>>> suitable rule
>>>>>>> sets, this entailment is much more powerful than it looks at first. A
>>>>>>> reference to
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-rif-owl-rl-20100511/
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> and to ter Horst's paper (which, actually, still appears in the =
>>>>> reference
>>>>>>> list) would be useful.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I've added a new section: 7.2 Custom Rulesets for Common Vocabulary
>>>>>> Interpretations (Informative) that discusses this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yep! Thanks
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ivan
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> -- Chime
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>>> =20
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>>>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>>>>> mobile: +31-641044153
>>>>> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
>>>>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --Apple-Mail-20--508810017
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>>>>> --Apple-Mail-20--508810017--
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dr. Birte Glimm, Room 306
>> Computing Laboratory
>> Parks Road
>> Oxford
>> OX1 3QD
>> United Kingdom
>> +44 (0)1865 283529
> 
> 
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Received on Tuesday, 18 May 2010 12:17:51 GMT

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