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DAWG draft meeting record 26-July

From: Eric Prud'hommeaux <eric@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:39:36 -0400
To: public-rdf-dawg@w3.org
Message-ID: <20050728193936.GB2854@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-minutes

                                RDF Data Access

26 Jul 2005

   Agenda

   See also: IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          AndyS, Jeen_Broekstra, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Kendall_Clark,
          DaveB, DanC, EricP, EliasT, LeeF, Kevin, Jos_De_Roo, Souri

   Regrets
   Chair
          DanC

   Scribe
          DaveB, EricP

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
            http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSe
            p/0120.html
         2. ISSUE resultsMimeType
         3. SPARQL results namespace name
         4. SPARQL results publication
         5. Experience with SPARQL/P/SOAP/Axis Seaborne
         6. SPARQL QL last call comments
         7. BASE IRI resolution
         8. Issue queryMimeType, "External Storage of Queries"
         9. issue valueTesting: optional and error cases
     * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________



Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0120.html

   <DanC> Scribe: DaveB

   <_> 26 July agenda

   <DanC> 19 July minutes

   accepted minutes

   Next meeting: next week, chair: DanC, scribe: AndyS

   actions in section one of the agenda:

   <_> ACTION: EricP clarify which regex lang [DONE] [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <_> ACTION: PatH to review new optionals definitions, if any. [DONE]
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <_> ACTION: DanC to check after August on SteveH regarding test
   preparation for publication as WG Note [CONTINUED] [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <_> ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime
   triple [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <_> ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [CONTINUED]
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <_> ACTION: EricP to finish extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 [CONTINUED]
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <_> ACTION: SteveH to review the relevant test case re: IRI
   normalization ref http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes#item06
   [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <_> ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to
   valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) ref
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf5-bos.html#item05 CONTINUED
   [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

ISSUE resultsMimeType

   comment from july 2004

   ref to
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0116.ht
   ml

   <_> IANA mime type registration for "application/sparql-results+xml"

   <kendall> is ".srf" better?

   <DanC> AndyS: seems OK, though I found one conflict with ".srq"

   <kendall> where "better" == "no conflicts"

   <kendall> I'm a little bit leery of this conflict w/ some sql systems,
   but it's not a big deal.

   <DanC> (I was thinking .sqr )

   <db-scr> Souri arrivesi

   <db-scr> DanC - add it to the result draft and get reviewers

   <DanC> Scribe: EricP

   <scribe> ACTION: DaveB to add mime type to results format [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <AndyS> A Google search for filetype:sqr gave no returns

   <scribe> ACTION: EliasT to review XML Results mime-type registration
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <scribe> ACTION: DanC to review XML Results mime-type registration
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <DaveB> it's only 134 words...

   <DaveB> lines

   <JosD> found http://filext.com/detaillist.php?extdetail=SRQ and should
   mean "Unprocessed Microsoft Server Request"

   <DanC> 4ish

   straw poll: who wants to resolve XML Results mime-type today?

   0 want to delay

   PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/mime.txt
   (delegating choice of file extension to the editor) addresses issue
   resultsMimeType, contingent on review by Elias

   RESOLVED, OBJECTIONS: 0, ABSENTIONS: 0

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note impact on protocol examples

   <DanC> ACTION: KendallC to update protocol spec w.r.t. results mime
   type [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

SPARQL results namespace name

   <DanC> How about changing sparqlResults to

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2005/sparql-results

   <DaveB> cvs 1.45 of rf1 now has mime type section 5

   <kendall> I prefer dash to camel case, but don't care about the month
   droppage.

   DanC: Bjoern: '-' separated namespaces are easier for javascript
   coders than camel case.
   ... ... also '-' separated namespaces are more consistent with other
   W3C namespaces

   7-ish prefer '-'

   <DanC> PROPOSED: to change the namespace name to
   http://www.w3.org/2005/sparql-results (and update rf1 and rq23)

   OBJECTIONS: 0

   ABSENTIONS: 0

   RESOLVED

   <kendall> ACTION: KendallC to Check whether the results namespace is
   in protocol draft; if so, update. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <scribe> ACTION: AndyS to fix rq23 to reflect new results namespace
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <scribe> ACTION: EricP to ask for namespace approval and put a
   document there [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <DanC> ACTION: DaveB to update rf1 with new namespace [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <DanC> resolution is contingent on director's approval

   <DaveB> rf1 cvs 1.46 now has the new namespace

   EliasT: atom [#-]-less namespace is ugly when concatonated

   DanC: i know of no intention to use with RDF

   <DanC> (in irc, who prefers http://www.w3.org/2005/sparql-results# ? )

   <kendall> i prefer # to bare "sparql-results"

   who prefers a hash?: 3 or 4

   who's prefers none?: 0

   <DanC> PROPOSED: to change the namespace name to
   http://www.w3.org/2005/sparql-results# (and update rf1 and rq23)

   <DanC> RESOLVED, JeenB abstaining

   ABSTENTIONS: jeen

SPARQL results publication

   DanC: DaveB has integrated ordering and limits

   LeeF: i *think* all outstanding points have been addressed

   DanC: I imagine a test case with an attribute from a randing namespace

   DaveB: text says "this element here, and there are these attribtutes
   there" but the schemas could be normative (striking the caveat "these
   are informative " sentence)

   <DanC> "Normativeness of the XML schemas. Pick one?"

   <kendall> (I'm planning to use the RelaxNG one in my web framework to
   validate XML stored in a db...FWIW)

   <LeeF> similarly, we have as of yet uncoded plans that will likely use
   the XML schema

   DanC: who wants to make the XSD schema normative?

   around 6

   <DanC> PROPOSED: to note that the .xsd is derived from the .rng and
   make them both normative

   <DanC> PROPOSED: to note that the .xsd is derived from the .rng (and
   therefore, as far as we know, they mean the same thing) and make them
   both normative

   <howardk> daveb: did you get my original email posted to the group?

   <DanC> so RESOLVED

   DanC: is there a term for "SPARQL Results Format document"?

   <kendall> "serialized result set"?

   DaveB: could add to section 1 or 2

   <DanC> "sparql results document"

   <DanC> ACTION: DaveB to choose a term and define it [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <kendall> I'm happy following Dave's lead here.

   <kendall> ACTION: KendallC to use Dave's name for a results set doc in
   the protocol draft... [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   DanC: i can now test an instance with a schema validator
   ... i can now test an instance with a schema validator
   ... yes or no, take the XML Results Format + actioned cahnges to last
   call
   ... LC to end at the same time as SPARQL Query

   all are happy with it

   <DanC> PROPOSED: to take v1.46 + edits per actions today (plus SOTD)
   to last call.

   <DanC> RESOLVED. Action EricP

   <DanC> critical path people are: Dave, DanC, EliasT, EricP

   <scribe> ACTION: ericP to publish rf1 [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

Experience with SPARQL/P/SOAP/Axis Seaborne

   kendall: worried about optimizing for one particular tool (Axis)

   AndyS: have eliminated all Axis-isms

   <DanC> ACTION: KendallC to add POST binding to protocol doc [recorded
   in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   kendall: post binding is number one on my protocol doc list

   <DanC> ("'patch' is invoved making the xsd from relaxng..."? hmm.)

   <DanC> ACTION: KendallC to consider flattening rdf-dataset a la
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0087.ht
   ml [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   kendall: I added rdf-dataset only to mirror the prose

   <EliasT> re: xsd/relaxng patch. Does it matter if both are
   independently normative?

SPARQL QL last call comments

   <kendall> AndyS: Sorry to have not ACK'd publicly on that message.
   It's useful, I just lost track of it.

   <DanC> ACTION: DanC to investigate having CVS commits send to the WG
   list [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <AndyS> Kendall - no problem

   DanC: I asked sysreq to do it. they said "done". i haven't seen it
   work

   <kendall> AndyS: yr point 2/ is also on my TODO list already, so ACK
   that. I'll think about 3/ & 4/

   DanC: we now have 4 open issues (from the comments)

   <kendall> (My only comment about 5/ is that I wish we had xml
   serialization of queries so we could POST *that*, but -shrug-)

   <AndyS> Err - that's different - I'm asking for a POST HTML form

   DanC: editorial comments included ref to ABNF

   <DanC> ACTION: DaveB respond to "sparqlResults namespace" comment
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0
   039.html , after rq23 is updated [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   DanC: we owe Bjoern an "are you happy?" response

   <kendall> AndyS: well, yes, gotcha. We have to POST something, and the
   only thing we can post now, since it's the only thing we have
   predefined, is application/x-www-form-urlencoded.

   <DanC> I'm noodling on distinguishing "are you happy?" responses

   DanC later suggested the prefix [OK?], [CLOSED] indicates an ack to an
   "are you satisfied" ack

   DanC: WG members are welcome to act on any comment by proposing text
   to the editor via the WG
   ... some prefix will indicate a request to close

   <AndyS> I just want an HTML forms interface!

   <kendall> i don't want one. i guess i was suggesting that if we define
   a way to post stuff, people can do that from HTML forms or from some
   kind of automated client. i care about the latter, you care about the
   former. i don't see a problem?

   <AndyS> Quite hard to POST XML from HTML forms :-) without javascript.

   <LeeF> So, application/x-www-form-urlencoded.is fine then, right,
   AndyS?

   <LeeF> I don't think the two of you are disagreeing.

   <kendall> i was explicitly agreeing, actually. i guess not explicit
   enough.

   <AndyS> LeeF : yes

   <AndyS> Thought you were wanting XML in plain HTTP.

   <kendall> nope. (well, yes, i said i do want that, but then I said
   application/x-www-form-urlencoded was good enough for now. :>)

BASE IRI resolution

   [DanC summarizes
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0096]

   AndyS: I use java.net.uri . i don't think it does normalization.

   <DanC> PROPOSED: to add clarify SPARQL QL spec about base IRI
   normalization and add tests as per
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0096.ht
   ml

   RESOLVED, OBJECTIONS: 0, ABSTENTIONS: 0

   <scribe> ACTION: ericP to add "don't normalize" to rq23 (perhaps
   supplied in 0096) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <scribe> ACTION: ericP to send [OK?] message to Bjoern [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <DanC>
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0
   042.html Bjoern Hoehrmann

   <scribe> ACTION: EricP to add test in 0096 to rq23 tests. label
   "approved" and ref this meeting record. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

Issue queryMimeType, "External Storage of Queries"

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/mime.txt

   <DanC> "application/sparql"

   <kendall> My only concern here is making it possible in the future to
   have an XML serialization of SPARQL queries. Err, I mean, not making
   it not possible.

   <AndyS> text/ ?

   <DanC> mime.txt,v 1.2 2005/07/25 15:41:27

   <AndyS> UTF-8 vs UTF-16?

   <DaveB> no, not text/

   <DaveB> then you *do* get into charset issues

   <kendall> (Hmm, I guess my concern is moot, thinking about it some
   more.)

   <kendall> I'd prefer "application/sparql-query" to
   "application/sparql", I think. More specific, more clear.

   <kendall> Also symmetric with "sparql-results"

   <LeeF> +1 kendall's suggestion

   <howardk> +1 as well

   <EliasT> +1

   <EliasT> file extension? .sq?

   <EliasT> as opposed to ".rq"

   -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/mime.txt
   application/sparql-query mime-type registration

   <kendall> ACTION: KendallC to add security considerations section to
   proto draft, under 4. Policy... [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   mime.txt updated, @@'s added

   <kendall> Is ".rq" the conventional extension for RDQL queries?

   <LeeF> rq = "RDF query" presumably?

   <scribe> ACTION: ericP to update rq23 to include the text of
   rq23/mime.txt reflect security concearns [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   <AndyS> We use that in the test suite

   <kendall> cool; just wondering

   <DaveB> yes all our tests are .rq

issue valueTesting: optional and error cases

   <AndyS> It's not in obvious use elsewhere (strangely)

   <kendall> i find it a tiny bit confusing, but not a big deal.

   <DanC> "SPARQL defines a set of functions & operations (sections 11.1
   and 11.2) that all implementations must provide."

   <kendall> +1 to DanC's point

   <kendall> though I'd slice up the core differently, I think. I don't
   want to be required to implement all those Fs&Os to be a sparql
   processor. Am I the only one?

   <DanC> DanC: as I wrote earlier, I prefer not to refer to
   "implementations" at all in the QL spec; I prefer to specify
   languages, e.g. Core Sparql and extended sparql

   11.2.4 Extensible Value Testing

   kendall: I don't want to have to implement all (for instance, dates)

   <kendall> I *may* just be pointlessly whining here!

   kendall: of the functions and operators
   ... i'd like the core to be smaller

   <DanC> AndyS: if dates are not core, < might not work on them

   <AndyS> Integers are harder than dates!

   <kendall> but i have clients for integers :>

   <howardk> serious andy?

   Kendall: dates and strings probably aren't that much work. don't want
   to make a big deal of it.

   <jeen> as a data point: we recently received a code contribution in
   Sesame for supporting dates. it took the coder about a week to
   implement (that is, including getting familiar with the sesame code
   base).

   <AndyS> Type promotion needs to be done. 1.5 > 2^^xsd:byte

   <DanC> FILTER func:even(?id)

   <DanC> 11.2.4 Extensible Value Testing

   <AndyS> I used the Xerces code (via Dave Reynolds wrappers) for date
   comparision, If you have a library, its easy, if not, it is long.

   <howardk> right

   <AndyS> (I was picky and wanted timezone to be preserved - that was my
   value add - Xerces turns all to Z)

   <kendall> or if you have a library and there is semantic mismatch, but
   -shrug-

   <DanC> bug: (section 11.3)

   <DanC> " there is an extension mechanism (section 11.3)"

   <DanC> (I recommend you use XSLT to make/check your xrefs)

   <kendall> it's pretty much 90 minutes, FYI

   <DanC> ACTION EricP/Andy: revise rq23 to remove reference to
   implementations/engines (e.g. 3.3 Value Constraints ´┐ŻEUR" Definition )

   <DaveB> the rf1 abstract also uses impl

   <DaveB> uhoh, I gotta go rsn

   <DanC> ADJOURN.

   <kendall> thx

   <DaveB> seems .srx isn't used according to filext.com

   <DaveB> or file-ext.com

   <DanC> (looking at http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2234.html )

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: AndyS to fix rq23 to reflect new results namespace
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: DanC to review XML Results mime-type registration
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: DaveB respond to "sparqlResults namespace" comment
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0
   039.html , after rq23 is updated [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: DaveB to add mime type to results format [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: DaveB to choose a term and define it [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: DaveB to update rf1 with new namespace [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: EliasT to review XML Results mime-type registration
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: ericP to add "don't normalize" to rq23 (perhaps supplied
   in 0096) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: EricP to add test in 0096 to rq23 tests. label
   "approved" and ref this meeting record. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: EricP to ask for namespace approval and put a document
   there [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: ericP to publish rf1 [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: ericP to send [OK?] message to Bjoern [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: ericP to update rq23 to include the text of
   rq23/mime.txt reflect security concearns [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: KendallC to add POST binding to protocol doc [recorded
   in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: KendallC to add security considerations section to proto
   draft, under 4. Policy... [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: KendallC to Check whether the results namespace is in
   protocol draft; if so, update. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: KendallC to consider flattening rdf-dataset a la
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0087.ht
   ml [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: KendallC to update protocol spec w.r.t. results mime
   type [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: KendallC to use Dave's name for a results set doc in the
   protocol draft... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   [PENDING] ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous
   to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) ref
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf5-bos.html#item05 [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: DanC to check after August on SteveH regarding test
   preparation for publication as WG Note [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on
   op:dateTime triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: DanC to investigate having CVS commits send to the
   WG list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [recorded
   in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: EricP to finish extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: SteveH to review the relevant test case re: IRI
   normalization ref http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes#item06
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   [DONE] ACTION: EricP clarify which regex lang [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
   [DONE] ACTION: PatH to review new optionals definitions, if any.
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.126 (CVS
    log)
    $Date: 2005/07/28 19:34:42 $

-- 
-eric

office: +81.466.49.1170 W3C, Keio Research Institute at SFC,
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Received on Thursday, 28 July 2005 19:39:41 GMT

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