W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-qt-comments@w3.org > May 2002

Re: [xml-dev] XPath 2.0 - how much of XQuery should it include?

From: Jeni Tennison <jeni@jenitennison.com>
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 20:09:07 +0100
Message-ID: <471592277744.20020510200907@jenitennison.com>
To: Jonathan Robie <jonathan.robie@datadirect-technologies.com>
CC: public-qt-comments@w3.org
Hi Jonathan,

[Moved to public-qt-comments@w3.org]

> Mike Kay forwarded your email to our internal lists. I will try to
> summarize the results of this thread for the XPath task force, and
> ask for this to be put on our agenda.

I don't think it's anything I haven't said before, including on the
comments lists.

>>XPath 2.0 incorporates a number of *statements* that are already
>>provided by XSLT 2.0. The for "expression" and the if "expression"
>>would be classed as statements in any other language.
> The reason they are not called statements in XPath 2.0 is that XPath
> 2.0, like XQuery, is a functional language, and it doesn't really
> have statements. They do resemble traditional statements
> syntactically, but these are expressions to be evaluated, not
> statements to be executed. Is the syntactic form the problem - that
> it looks too much like the XSLT statements?

I think that might be part of the problem. As others pointed out, I'm
wrong to think in terms of expressions and statements, but I think
anyone that doesn't have a large dose of Lisp/Scheme etc. in their
blood (i.e. the majority of people working with XSLT, most of whom are
either programmers in the VB/Java line, or not programmers at all)
will think in these terms.

There seems like there should be a qualitative distinction between the
jobs that XPath and XSLT carry out. I've demonstrated through my posts
here that I'm surpremely unable to articulate what the distinction
should be, but I know it ain't the one that's being made at the

>>   - for expressions, because XSLT has xsl:for-each, although I do
>>     think that a simple mapping operator would be essential if there
>>     weren't for expressions
>>   - conditional expressions, as they currently are, because XSLT has
>>     xsl:if and xsl:choose, although I do think that a simple
>>     conditional expression (i.e. test ? true : false) would be vital
>>     if there weren't if expressions
> For these two, you are essentially asking for a simpler syntax to be
> used in XPath to express a subset of the functionality of existing
> expressions in XQuery. I am a little allergic to this, because that
> means that XQuery would probably have to support both, moving the
> duplication out of XPath and into XQuery. Is changing the syntax of
> if and for important enough to justify this?

Yes. I can see why you'd be slightly allergic to it, but I think it
actually simplifies the things that you'd want to do as well. Instead

    for $b in document("http://www.bn.com")/bib/book
            { $b/title }
            { $b/author  }

You could use:

    -> <result> {title} {author} </result>

Rather than:

    for $b in document("www.bn.com/bib.xml")//book
    where count($b/author) > 0
            { $b/title }
                for $a in $b/author[position()<=2]  
                return $a
                if (count($b/author) > 2)
                then <et-al/>
                else ()

You could use:

    for $b in document("www.bn.com/bib.xml")//book
    where count($b/author) > 0
            { $b/title }
            { $b/author[position() <= 2] -> . }
            { (count($b/author) > 2) ? <et-al/> : () }

Basically, with the for expression, it saves you from having to make
up variable names for the simplest kind of for expression, which is
just a mapping of an expression over the items in that sequence.

It's also handy when you need to have the sequence that you iterate
over with the for expression be generated with another for expression
-- a lot like the / operator, but for general sequences.
I've been told that XQuery people don't like the "line noise" of
XPath, and prefer to use keywords instead. In some ways that's because
you have the whole document to play within; in XSLT, we have to put
everything in attribute values -- XPath is the concise side of the
XSLT+XPath language -- so short is best.

So if you don't want to have a short syntax, an alternative compromise
would be to have a really small core of XPath, smaller than XPath 1.0,
something that incorporated only the operators/functions/axes that are
used across XPath 1.0, XQuery, XPointer, XML Schema and XForms, then
have XSLT extend this with a few axes, operators and functions, to
create a XSLT-version of XPath that addresses the requirements of XSLT

Since you like use cases, to demonstrate why this is important for
XSLT+XPath, let me use an amended version of one of the XQuery use
cases, The query is "For each item whose highest bid is more
than twice its reserve price, list the item number, description,
reserve price, and highest bid." Let's say that instead it was "Return
a sequence of the highest bids of those items whose highest bid is
more than twice its reserve price."

Since we want to return a sequence of values, and XSLT 2.0 doesn't
support the generation of sequences of existing nodes, we need to do
this with XPath. The original query is:

 for $item in document("items.xml")//item_tuple
    let $b := document("bids.xml")//bid_tuple[itemno = $item/itemno]
    let $z := max(for $x in $b/bid return decimal($x))
    where $item/reserve_price * 2 < $z
    return $z

An XPath/XSLT version would be:

  <xsl:variable name="bids"
                select="document('bids.xml')//bid_tuple" />
  <xsl:variable name="highest-bids"
    select="for $item in document('items.xml')//item_tuple
                           [reserve_price * 2 <
                            max(for $x in $bids[itemno = $item/itemno]
                                return decimal($x))]
            return max(for $x in $bids[itemno = $item/itemn]
                       return decimal($x))" />
Of course most people will simplify this by defining a function that
will calculate the maximum bid for a particular item, though the fact
that you can't assign values to variables in XPath means that unless
you've got fairly sophisticated memoisation, you're going to be
calculating the maximum bid twice for each item.

The version that I'm proposing is:

  <xsl:variable name="bids"
                select="document('bids.xml')//bid_tuple" />
  <xsl:variable name="highest-bids">
    <xsl:for-each select="document('items.xml')//item_tuple">
      <xsl:variable name="b"
                    select="$bids[itemno = current()/itemno]" />
      <xsl:variable name="z" select="max($b/bid -> decimal(.))" />
      <xsl:if test="reserve_price * 2 < $z">
        <xsl:item select="$z" />

Say that I then decided that I wanted the $highest-bids variable to
hold a sequence of <bid> elements instead, so that I could include
information on the reserve price on them. With the current syntax,
because this process now involves generating nodes rather than values,
I have to use XSLT to do the sequence generation. I guess there are a
couple of ways I could do it. I could reuse my existing code:

  <xsl:variable name="bids"
                select="document('bids.xml')//bid_tuple" />
  <xsl:variable name="highest-bids-temp"
    select="for $item in document('items.xml')//item_tuple
                           [reserve_price * 2 <
                            max(for $x in $bids[itemno = $item/itemno]
                                return decimal($x))]
            return max(for $x in $bids[itemno = $item/itemn]
                       return decimal($x))" />
  <xsl:variable name="highest-bids">
    <xsl:for-each select="document('items.xml')//item_tuple">
      <xsl:variable name="p" select="position()" />
      <bid reserve="{reserve_price}">
        <xsl:value-of select="$highest-bids-temp[$p]" />

or I could completely rewrite it:

  <xsl:variable name="bids"
                select="document('bids.xml')//bid_tuple" />
  <xsl:variable name="highest-bids">
    <xsl:for-each select="document('items.xml')//item_tuple">
      <xsl:variable name="b"
                    select="$bids[itemno = current()/itemno]" />
      <xsl:variable name="z"
                    select="max(for $x in $b return decimal($x))" />
      <xsl:if test="reserve_price * 2 < $z">
        <bid reserve="{reserve_price}">
          <xsl:value-of select="$z" />

which is obviously very similar to the version that you'd use with the
design that I'm suggesting; it's very easy to change that version to
the one above.

Perhaps people won't have to change code between creating new nodes
and returning sequences of existing nodes or atomic values that often,
I'm not sure, but they will have to change their thinking between the
two tasks frequently. In XQuery, the two mechanisms are exactly the
same, which makes it very easy to know how to approach a given task. I
just want that to be true in XSLT as well.

>>Other things I feel less strongly about; I wouldn't abandon XPath 2.0
>>if they remained, but I don't particularly see the point of them (or
>>the requirement, if you want to go by use cases):
>>   - comments in XPaths -- if an XPath gets long enough that you need
>>     to embed comments in it, you should break it up and use XML
>>     comments instead
> Or perhaps we need to think about how to use XQuery and XSLT
> together, so that people can use XQuery when they need complex
> expressions like these.

I think that what people need is more support in XSLT, not another
language tacked on to XSLT.

To be honest, I think that the kind of merger that people have in mind
when they talk about using XQuery and XSLT together is to replace XSLT
with XQuery. Much as I can see the advantages of XQuery, I do think
that there are advantages to having an XML syntax, such as the fact
that it can be parsed by existing tools, edited in existing editors,
easily manipulated by other programs and so on, so I don't want to see
that go.

If there was to be a merger, I'd like to see XSLT becoming the XML
syntax for XQuery. If people viewed it like that, they might start to
understand why there doesn't need to be replicated functionality in
XPath and XSLT.

>>   - the "union" operator -- when is it ever a good idea to have more
>>     than one symbol for the same operator?
> Would you want the 'intersect' operator in XPath? If so, I would
> rather use 'union' and 'intersect' than '|' and 'intersect'.

Yes, I do want the 'intersect' and more importantly 'except' operators
in XPath. If you were designing the language from scratch, your
argument would be valid. But you're not, you're building on top of
XPath, and XPath already has '|'. I know it's not consistent with the
rest of the naming scheme. I'm sorry.

>>   - eq/ne/lt/gt/ge/le -- these do exactly the same as =/!=/</>/>=/<=.
>>     The only difference for XPath (as far as I can see) is that if the
>>     arguments are sequences then they (due to fallback processing)
>>     compare the first of the items in those sequences rather than
>>     every combination of values of those sequences. I can't think of
>>     any occasion in which that's useful.
> I bet you rewrote that last sentence three times before you came up
> with a formulation this polite ;->

I wrote the entire email three times! ;)

>>You didn't want me to go into the functions, did you?...
> Oh yes!!! The status quo is that XPath is going to inherit the
> entire function library. If you don't want this, let's hear the
> feedback.

OK, I'll work through it in detail. My main impression of the December
drafts is that it basically provides more or less the same set of
functions (if you ignore all the constructors and operators), but with
(it appears to me) less detailed descriptions (though more examples,
which are great), without consideration of the functions that have
been requested for XPath 2.0 by XPath 1.0 users (and implemented in
libraries such as EXSLT and FXSL), and without consideration about how
easy it's going to be for people to use the functions to achieve real
tasks. But I'd like to be able to make more constructive comments
about individual functions... there's just so darned much to go

> I wonder if anybody has time to raise this subject on
> xsl-list@lists.mulberrytech.com. I don't have time to participate in
> another active discussion, but it would be interesting to see
> whether those people agree.

To be honest, I doubt whether many people have had the energy to go
through the WDs, so any opinion they do have will have been formed by
the generally positive demonstrations of XSLT 2.0 that there have been
on the list or by the generally negative impression that XPath 2.0 is
based on the PSVI and therefore hideously complex because XML Schema
is hideously complex.

It's hard to get an objective assessment, given that most people who
could raise the question would have their own bias. Perhaps Max could
ask for people's opinions on individual features.

> The main reason that has been given for including all these features
> in XPath is the claim that XSL users really want them. If that's not
> the case, I really think we should keep XPath simpler.

We want the functionality, we just don't want all of it in XPath.



Jeni Tennison
Received on Friday, 10 May 2002 15:09:10 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 7 January 2015 15:45:09 UTC