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[pwg] Agenda 2018-11-26

From: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 20:43:15 +0000
To: W3C Publishing Working Group <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <5D36885B-3A04-45E5-AA49-9A50A561148C@rakuten.com>
Hello PWG-ers,

Happy Turkey day to our American members and happy Thursday for everyone else! Below is the agenda for Monday’s WG conference call, to be held at the usual day and time [0].

We have switched from WebEx to GoToMeeting!  Here's the page for the new dial-in information<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_publishing_groups_publ-2Dwg_Meetings_gotomeetings&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=1whzL1URU2Ro0XRHR4K1xCxfnie5p5f0Kr55PsLdyAY&e=> [1].

If you are new to this group, learn the tricks on the newbie page<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_publishing_groups_publ-2Dwg_WorkMode_newbie&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=VLHuCSU-Z5ZshNK0rOwVH5wvISY5RERZjJ6Ui-xq-tU&e=> [2].  See also the Publishing WG home page<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_publishing_groups_publ-2Dwg_&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=qP2I6sYfwQLqG6NT8s9J4C8rpdZN5PHA5-qmXiRHkxE&e=> [3].

Please let us know if you are able to scribe. Please join the call via GoToMeeting [1] and join IRC [13] for live chat & minutes (IRC channel #pwg).
Agenda 26 November:

  *   Approve minutes [4]
  *   ToC [5], [6] (explainer is located at the bottom of the email – will look for better way to present this for next week)
  *   Propose closing issues [6]
  *   AOB
Draft Agenda for 3 December (tweaks to come)

  *   Approve minutes
  *   Use Cases, MVP TF?
  *   Audio Issues [8] [9]
  *   AOB
[0] https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=PWG&iso=20181119T12&p1=43


[1] https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/gotomeetings<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_publishing_groups_publ-2Dwg_Meetings_gotomeetings&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=1whzL1URU2Ro0XRHR4K1xCxfnie5p5f0Kr55PsLdyAY&e=>

[2] https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/WorkMode/newbie<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_publishing_groups_publ-2Dwg_WorkMode_newbie&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=VLHuCSU-Z5ZshNK0rOwVH5wvISY5RERZjJ6Ui-xq-tU&e=>

[3] https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_publishing_groups_publ-2Dwg_&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=qP2I6sYfwQLqG6NT8s9J4C8rpdZN5PHA5-qmXiRHkxE&e=>
[4] https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-11-19-pwg.html


[5] https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/291<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_w3c_wpub_issues_291-23issuecomment-2D437387714&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=5wrrCYJDFxBC_SFlcMmLJzJy8oEAzQfjPOxMdhEl484&e=>

[6] https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/350


[7] https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/propose%20closing


[8] https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/352


[9] https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/351


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GoToMeeting [10].  To mute/unmute your line press "*6".

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We will also use an IRC channel to minute the discussions:

Address:  irc.w3.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__irc.w3.org_&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=xBtt31nbUKBe4N7ZqRc1VpBjET2szqTLVwSMZV8Q88c&e=>  (channel #pwg)

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[10] https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/gotomeetings<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_publishing_groups_publ-2Dwg_Meetings_gotomeetings&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=1whzL1URU2Ro0XRHR4K1xCxfnie5p5f0Kr55PsLdyAY&e=>

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[14] http://www.w3.org/2002/01/UsingZakim<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_2002_01_UsingZakim&d=DwMFAg&c=0YLnzTkWOdJlub_y7qAx8Q&r=UA06cI8XXInYdXw9rl9ALdt10nCFZeVOvUuTxI8FPSg&m=SsNI4wAKto1laURJJx0n_UGlZjBjdoL-UJJ287MdB7A&s=F7Q-jebA93XQA4jfz5a2CMOojrgVEBc7v_8aTHtU3ng&e=>

TOC Explainer

Relevant issues: [issue #350](https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/350) and [issue #291](https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/291). Was also part of [issue #285](https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/285) (closed)

There is a general consensus that a WP SHOULD include a Table of Contents (TOC) in some form. Usability, accessibility, etc., have all been cited to justify this. The issues are on what the author is expected to provide (or not to provide) so that User Agents could make the best usage of a TOC.

As we have discussed, there are several options for the TOC:

     *   A traditional, “structured” ToC, in the form of a hierarchical list.
     *   A more “visual” form of a TOC, which does not necessarily appears as a reference hierarchy but, e.g., as a complex grid with entries spread all over the place, an image with sensitive areas used to identify a chapter, etc.

There seems to be a consensus in the group that both these TOC options have their roles and usages in a WPUB, possibly even side-by-side. The usage of the former is widespread and obvious; children’s book or a manga may provide an example for the usage of the latter. There is a stronger consensus that we define the structured TOC in the spec, and leave the visual TOC to creator preference.

When it comes to the creation of both options for a TOC in a Web Publication context, the question on how to define them comes to the fore. There are several issues to consider:

     *   It is possible to define a hierarchical HTML structure, in the form of a somewhat restricted content model on HTML elements like `nav`, `ul`, or `ol`, etc. to define a structured TOC. The [EPUB Navigation Document Specification](https://w3c.github.io/publ-epub-revision/epub32/spec/epub-packages.html#sec-package-nav-def) may be a good starting point. The main advantage is that it is possible to extract a simple hierarchical data structure that user agents _MAY_ use to implement, e.g., a “hamburger style” TOC menu.
     *   There may also be some other “outlining” algorithms to extract a hierarchical TOC from the document structure itself. For example, respec (the tool we use for our own specification) creates a structured TOC by requiring the author to use a strict combination of section elements to represent chapters, subchapters, etc, and h1 or h2, etc., elements for the title of those sections. However, there is no known algorithm that could extract such a hierarchy from any HTML content, i.e., this approach should not be considered for the purposes of a WP standard.

These considerations lead to the following two questions that the WG must decide.

  *   Is there a need to define, and make accessible from the manifest, an HTML-based structured TOC, usable to extract a simple hierarchical data structures containing labels and links? It is also up to the User Agent whether that data structure is used.
  *   Is there a need to make accessible from the manifest the reference to a visual TOC, without any restriction on what that reference would contain?

Note that these two features are not mutually exclusive. The author may be allowed to provide both a structured and visual TOC, or neither of the two.

Encoding a (structured) TOC in a data structure directly

All the previous issues concentrated on the TOC authored in a WPUB resource, i.e., within an HTML or possibly an SVG file. Also, the processing model is that, in the case of a structured TOC, the HTML content is used to extract a hierarchical data structure, a kind of an internal representation of a structured TOC usable by the User Agent. The separate question that did come up is:

  *   Is there a need to allow the author to express the (structured) TOC directly in the manifest as a data structure in JSON?

---

Pros:

  *   There a number of publications that deploy highly visual navigation pages, and it is important to be able to identify those; the User Agent may choose to use that instead of a hamburger menu
  *   Some content creators prefer a clear distinction between:
  *   optimized, machine-readable data structure designed to be ingested by a reading system / user agent, with the expectation that it will be rendered in an arbitrary, application-specific fashion.
  *   authored web document (custom structure and semantics, desired styling), with the expectation that it will be faithfully rendered by a web browser (or an web browser engine / webview component inside a reading system)
  *   There may be profiles (e.g., audiobooks, manga) where the content would not contain HTML at all, in which case JSON is the only option, especially if the profile requires additional data that cannot be expressed adequately in HTML (i.e. duration).

Cons:

  *   If we start profiling HTML in Web Publications, we will likely alienate the browser community as well as massively confuse authors
  *   Requiring a specific structure from an HTML ToC (as opposed to recommending one) is a regression from how the web works.
  *   Visual TOCs may raise some accessibility issues.
  *   Visual TOCs are a regression compared to EPUB 2 (NCX) and EPUB 3 (Nav doc).
  *   We are proposing to author user-facing content in JSON, when there is an existing HTML element that serves the same function.
  *   Adding a JSON structure would considerably complicate the specification: we should extend the current JSON-LD definitions, the processing of the manifest would have to include different branches, the question of priority comes up, etc.

  Wendy Reid

  Senior Quality Analyst

  Toronto, Canada (GMT-5)

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Received on Thursday, 22 November 2018 20:43:47 UTC

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