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Re: PROV-ISSUE-233 (paq-dm-and-accounts?): If not in DM, should there be some form of account support in the paq? [Accessing and Querying Provenance]

From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:45:14 +0000
Message-ID: <EMEW3|fee01087cbad92592a23075ff03a042bo17AjH08L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|4F32523A.1050900@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Graham Klyne <Graham.Klyne@zoo.ox.ac.uk>
CC: Stian Soiland-Reyes <soiland-reyes@cs.manchester.ac.uk>, W3C provenance WG <public-prov-wg@w3.org>


On 02/08/2012 10:31 AM, Graham Klyne wrote:
> Luc,
>
> On 08/02/2012 10:01, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>
>> Hi graham
>>
>> In short, to be able to retrieve prov from a service with the 
>> following parameters:
>>
>>   Http;//service/endpoint&entity=...&account=...
>
> Hmmm, I think this is mostly covered by 
> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/paq/prov-aq.html#retrieve-provenance-information-for-a-resource 
>  (section 4.1.2).

The service specification, as currently defined, only has one parameter 
(uri).
My request is that we should have a second parameter (account).

Of course, then, we need to look at ways of obtaining it.
>
>> And have a mechanism to pass account ids.
>
> This is the bit that I have trouble with.  What is this "account id"?  
> I think it's really inappropriate to introduce it as a concept in PAQ 
> because it's been dropped from DM.

Not exactly.
What is being dropped in prov-dm is AccountRecord  a construct that 
bundles up records *as part of the data model*.
We have agreed that the bundling up is now done outside the data model.

However, having named a bundle with a URI (with whatever mechanism we 
choose), we need to be able to express its
provenance. It's then useful to have a subtype of entity (accountEntity 
or similar) for this very purpose.
It will be in the working copy Paolo and I are currently working on.


Luc

>
> There is nothing in the specification that *prevents* you doing any of 
> this, but if the notion of account isn't part of the provenance model 
> it is bound to be a "private use" convention (which may become widely 
> used and a later candidate for standardization).



>
> I think an appropriate way forward here would be to prepare a separate 
> document that covers the concept of accounts, account IDs and service 
> extensions to access provenance keyed by account.  This could be a 
> candidate for a WG NOTE (which we were told at F2F the WG may choose 
> to issue without reference to the charter).
>
> Which leaves me still inclined to close this "wontfix".
>
> #g
> -- 
>
>>
>> Professor Luc Moreau
>> Electronics and Computer Science
>> University of Southampton
>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>> United Kingdom
>>
>>
>> On 8 Feb 2012, at 08:35, "Graham Klyne"<Graham.Klyne@zoo.ox.ac.uk>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Luc,
>>>
>>> I find that don't really know what you are asking for here.
>>>
>>> I propose that either:
>>> (a) you make a more concrete proposal that we can consider, or
>>> (b) I close the issue "wontfix"
>>>
>>> In judging any new proposal, I would expect to apply the "razor" we 
>>> agreed in the F2F, in that if the proposal is not readily consensual 
>>> then we should err on the side of under-specification rather than 
>>> over-specification.  Generally, I think we should now be looking to 
>>> remove material from the documents rather than add it.
>>>
>>> #g
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> On 07/02/2012 14:53, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote:
>>>> Then all bets are off beyond what you already know..
>>>>
>>>> Or do you mean paq could be a general URI resolver?
>>>> On Feb 7, 2012 11:40 AM, "Luc Moreau"<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>   
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Stian,
>>>>> Sure, but what happens when accounts are identified by UUIDs ...
>>>>> Luc
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/07/2012 10:08 AM, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:35, Luc 
>>>>>> Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.**uk<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>
>>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I already flagged the need of being able to retrieve the 
>>>>>>> provenance of an
>>>>>>> entity in a given account.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you know the account/"provenance resource" URI, just fetch it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If not, then the PAQ will tell you about the provenance resources
>>>>>> ("accounts") that it knows about. You can fetch them individually 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> choose yourself how you would like to separate or merge them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>>>> United Kingdom                     
>>>>> http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~**lavm<http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Wednesday, 8 February 2012 10:47:39 GMT

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