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Re: ProvenanceContainer (Re: Workflow Example in Formal Model HTML document)

From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:38:40 +0100
Message-ID: <EMEW3|52a97486e421553e9301af268ac8b1b4n8SAch08L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|4E843CA0.1080705@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Paolo Missier <Paolo.Missier@ncl.ac.uk>
CC: Provenance Working Group WG <public-prov-wg@w3.org>, Satya Sahoo <satya.sahoo@case.edu>, Khalid Belhajjame <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>, Stian Soiland-Reyes <soiland-reyes@cs.manchester.ac.uk>, Daniel Garijo <dgarijov@gmail.com>, Timothy Lebo <lebot@rpi.edu>, James Cheney <jcheney@inf.ed.ac.uk>, "Deborah L. McGuinness" <dlm@cs.rpi.edu>
+1

On 09/29/2011 10:31 AM, Paolo Missier wrote:
> again, a parallel was made yesterday with an XML document, which 
> defines a namespace and then a data structure (tree-structured 
> elements) as its payload. In our case, the payload is a set of 
> expressions and the Container / Document also contains the IDs for all 
> accounts used in those expressions.
>
> -Paolo
>
>
> On 9/29/11 10:26 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>> It's a good point, inline with mine below (not used to make a
>> representation of something in the world),
>> and also echoed by James in his response to Satya.
>>
>> Maybe, the origin of the confusion seems to reside in the term
>> "container", which makes us
>> think about a container in the world.  I am happy to adopt another term
>> if more appropriate
>> (e.g. ProvenanceBundle, ProvenanceDocument, ....).  Suggestions?
>>
>> Luc
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09/29/2011 09:04 AM, Paolo Missier wrote:
>>> HI,
>>>
>>> Khalid made what I thought was a very good point yesterday, and which
>>> was recorded in the skype chat:
>>>
>>> "If we assert that provenance container is a subclass of Entity, this
>>> means that any bundle of provenance assertions characterize a thing,
>>> which is not the case."
>>>
>>> isn't that a key argument?
>>>
>>> --Paolo
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/29/11 6:21 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>> Hi Satya,
>>>>
>>>> A provenance container is not used to make a representation of
>>>> something in the World. It is a construct to bundle assertions 
>>>> together.
>>>>
>>>> An entity expression *is* an assertion.
>>>> A provenance container *is not* an assertion but contains assertions.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you that your envelope contains letters. Both envelope
>>>> and letters are things, one containing the other. That can be
>>>> *represented* using collections and containment relationships.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>> University of Southampton
>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>
>>>> On 29 Sep 2011, at 03:11, "Satya
>>>> Sahoo"<satya.sahoo@case.edu<mailto:satya.sahoo@case.edu>>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Luc,
>>>> We were not able to reach an agreement on how ProvenanceContainer is
>>>> not a specialized type of Entity during our ontology call on Monday
>>>> due to time constraints.
>>>>
>>>> To help better understand the differences and similarities, I copied
>>>> the two definition from PROV-DM to two documents and tried to compare
>>>> them side-by-side. The following are the two definitions:
>>>>
>>>> ===Entity====
>>>> In PROV-DM, an entity expression is a representation of an
>>>> identifiable characterized thing.
>>>>
>>>> ===ProvenanceContainer===
>>>> A provenance container is a house-keeping construct of PROV-DM, also
>>>> capable of bundling PROV-DM expressions. A provenance container is
>>>> not an expression, but can be exploited to return all the provenance
>>>> assertions in response to a request for the provenance of something
>>>> ([PROV-PAQ]).
>>>>
>>>> According to the two definitions, a provenance container can be an
>>>> "identifiable characterized thing" (not being an expression is not a
>>>> conceptual constraint). Also, the ability to return all provenance
>>>> assertions in response can be applied to an Agent also - similar to a
>>>> software agent returning the current stock market quotes.
>>>>
>>>> Further, if an Entity "contains" provenance assertions it can still
>>>> be an "identifiable characterized thing" thereby satisfying our
>>>> current definition of Entity.
>>>>
>>>> During our ontology telcon today Paolo explained that the primary
>>>> difference between Entity and Provenance Container is that Provenance
>>>> Container can "contain" provenance assertions while Entity are
>>>> assumed not to contain assertions. But, this seems to be an
>>>> application-specific requirement.
>>>>
>>>> For example, for a person writing a 3-page letter the three pages
>>>> will be instances of Entity and the envelope containing the three
>>>> pages will be a container. But for the postal service personnel, who
>>>> deal with thousands of envelopes per day, the envelope is an Entity
>>>> (and a sack for transporting the envelopes will be a container).
>>>>
>>>> Hence, I believe the difference between what thing is a
>>>> ProvenanceContainer or an Entity is an application-specific
>>>> perspective/requirement and there is no fundamental difference
>>>> between the two terms - except that Provenance terms seems to be a
>>>> specialized form an Entity in the sense that Provenance Container
>>>> contains provenance assertions, while an Entity may or may not
>>>> contain provenance assertions.
>>>>
>>>> Paolo suggested that we should bring up this issue to the WG mailing
>>>> list - hence I am cc'ing the mailing list also.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Satya
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 3:58 AM, Luc
>>>> Moreau<<mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk<mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> 
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I thought we had already discussed this, but I see location as
>>>> subtype of entity.
>>>> Same issue as with provenance container.  This is not a subtype of
>>>> entity.
>>>>
>>>> Luc
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059
>>>> 4487<tel:%2B44%2023%208059%204487>
>>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059
>>>> 2865<tel:%2B44%2023%208059%202865>
>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>> email:<mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>>> l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk<mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>>> United Kingdom<http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm>
>>>> http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Thursday, 29 September 2011 09:39:35 GMT

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