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Re: PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept 'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]

From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 10:33:15 +0100
Message-ID: <EMEW3|a85d5b0a5d9e8b9267ed3cb6a8d3cc48n57AXN08L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|4DEF41DB.7050003@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Paul Groth <pgroth@gmail.com>
CC: public-prov-wg@w3.org

Hi Paul and Daniel.

On 06/08/2011 10:13 AM, Paul Groth wrote:
> Hi Luc, all:
>
> Is it really necessary to go down this road of defining influence. I 
> have this fear that we will never bottom out.

Agreed.
>
> There are certain concepts that need to be defined terminologically 
> others may not. It depends on what are the core building blocks of the 
> model are.

I suppose we wouldn't want the standard model to be over-constraining, 
to allow for many forms of derivations (in physical, digital, conceptual 
contexts).

So, what are the (minimum) properties that need to be satisfied in order 
to qualify as a derivation?

Luc
>
> Paul
>
> Luc Moreau wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Having identified a concept of Invariant View or Perspective on Thing 
>> (IVPT), I'd like to go back
>> to the meaning of Derivation.
>>
>> Several of you indicated that Derivation expresses that one IVPT was 
>> influenced by another IVPT.
>>
>> Paolo has asked what does it mean to 'influence'? It's a good question!
>>
>> Will we be able to define a notion of influence that applies for all 
>> things,
>> whether physical, digital, conceptual, or other?  Should we go down 
>> the road of
>> modelling influence in specific domains?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Luc
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27/05/11 20:34, Stephan Zednik wrote:
>>>
>>> On May 27, 2011, at 5:04 AM, Daniel Garijo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Luc, all
>>>> In the example c2 is also a derivation of d2, and from my point of 
>>>> view,
>>>> c2 could also be seen as a derivation from c1, since it is the 
>>>> chart taken as reference
>>>> and corected in c2...
>>>>
>>>> As for your second question, I think that if we want to be able to 
>>>> cover
>>>> provenance from resources, resources representations and resources 
>>>> state
>>>> representation, a derivation must be able to refer to all of them.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> From the existing example/scenario section on Derivation:
>>>
>>> A derivation is a relation between two Resource State 
>>> Representations that expresses that one RSR was influenced by the 
>>> other RSR.
>>>
>>> A agree that a derivation should be a relation between two like 
>>> resource abstractions, and I agree with Daniel in that I am not sure 
>>> we should limit it to RSR.  I believe one Resource could be derived 
>>> from another Resource, and same with Resource State.  I also believe 
>>> derivation covers a large spectrum of relationships - FRBR has 
>>> covered some of this ground on the wide spectrum of different types 
>>> of derivation so thankfully we do not have to start from scratch. 
>>> Stories can be derived from other stores, editions of publications 
>>> are derived from earlier editions, adaptions are derived works, 
>>>  translations are derived expressions, etc.
>>>
>>> I suggest an quick overview of FRBR's conclusions on derivations to 
>>> provide direction.
>>>
>>> I also agree with the suggestion that Version be a specialization / 
>>> subtype of Derivation, as suggested in the Version section of the 
>>> existing example/scenario.
>>>
>>> --Stephan
>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Daniel
>>>>
>>>> 2011/5/27 Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>     Over the last week, we debated the notion of resource
>>>>     (PROV-ISSUE-1),
>>>>     one of the concepts identified in the charter as core to a
>>>>     provenance
>>>>     data model. It would be good to discuss the notion of derivation.
>>>>
>>>>     Do we agree with the illustration of derivation [1]:
>>>>     in the example, chart c1 is a derivation of data set d1.
>>>>     Are there other interesting illustrations?
>>>>
>>>>     Is derivation relating resources/resource representations/resource
>>>>     representation states?
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>     Luc
>>>>
>>>>     [1] http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On 05/20/2011 08:07 AM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker
>>>>     wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept
>>>>         'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]
>>>>
>>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/7
>>>>
>>>>         Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>         On product: Provenance Terminology
>>>>
>>>>         The Provenance WG charter identifies the concept
>>>>         'Derivation' as a core concept of the provenance interchange
>>>>         language to be standardized (see
>>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter).
>>>>
>>>>         What term do we adopt for the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>         How do we define the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>         Where does concept 'Derivation' appear in ProvenanceExample?
>>>>         Which provenance query requires the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>
>>>>         Wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     --     Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>     Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>>>     University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>>>     Southampton SO17 1BJ               email:
>>>>     l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>>>     United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Wednesday, 8 June 2011 09:33:52 GMT

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