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Re: PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept 'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]

From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:00:56 +0100
Message-ID: <EMEW3|b2d6a406162f9f41a7a7106622f2979an57B1208L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|4DEF4858.60005@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: public-prov-wg@w3.org
Hi all,
Another perspective on derivation:

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc

Luc

On 06/08/2011 10:33 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>
> Hi Paul and Daniel.
>
> On 06/08/2011 10:13 AM, Paul Groth wrote:
>> Hi Luc, all:
>>
>> Is it really necessary to go down this road of defining influence. I 
>> have this fear that we will never bottom out.
>
> Agreed.
>>
>> There are certain concepts that need to be defined terminologically 
>> others may not. It depends on what are the core building blocks of 
>> the model are.
>
> I suppose we wouldn't want the standard model to be over-constraining, 
> to allow for many forms of derivations (in physical, digital, 
> conceptual contexts).
>
> So, what are the (minimum) properties that need to be satisfied in 
> order to qualify as a derivation?
>
> Luc
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Having identified a concept of Invariant View or Perspective on 
>>> Thing (IVPT), I'd like to go back
>>> to the meaning of Derivation.
>>>
>>> Several of you indicated that Derivation expresses that one IVPT was 
>>> influenced by another IVPT.
>>>
>>> Paolo has asked what does it mean to 'influence'? It's a good question!
>>>
>>> Will we be able to define a notion of influence that applies for all 
>>> things,
>>> whether physical, digital, conceptual, or other?  Should we go down 
>>> the road of
>>> modelling influence in specific domains?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Luc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27/05/11 20:34, Stephan Zednik wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2011, at 5:04 AM, Daniel Garijo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Luc, all
>>>>> In the example c2 is also a derivation of d2, and from my point of 
>>>>> view,
>>>>> c2 could also be seen as a derivation from c1, since it is the 
>>>>> chart taken as reference
>>>>> and corected in c2...
>>>>>
>>>>> As for your second question, I think that if we want to be able to 
>>>>> cover
>>>>> provenance from resources, resources representations and resources 
>>>>> state
>>>>> representation, a derivation must be able to refer to all of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> From the existing example/scenario section on Derivation:
>>>>
>>>> A derivation is a relation between two Resource State 
>>>> Representations that expresses that one RSR was influenced by the 
>>>> other RSR.
>>>>
>>>> A agree that a derivation should be a relation between two like 
>>>> resource abstractions, and I agree with Daniel in that I am not 
>>>> sure we should limit it to RSR.  I believe one Resource could be 
>>>> derived from another Resource, and same with Resource State.  I 
>>>> also believe derivation covers a large spectrum of relationships - 
>>>> FRBR has covered some of this ground on the wide spectrum of 
>>>> different types of derivation so thankfully we do not have to start 
>>>> from scratch. Stories can be derived from other stores, editions of 
>>>> publications are derived from earlier editions, adaptions are 
>>>> derived works,  translations are derived expressions, etc.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest an quick overview of FRBR's conclusions on derivations to 
>>>> provide direction.
>>>>
>>>> I also agree with the suggestion that Version be a specialization / 
>>>> subtype of Derivation, as suggested in the Version section of the 
>>>> existing example/scenario.
>>>>
>>>> --Stephan
>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>
>>>>> 2011/5/27 Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
>>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Over the last week, we debated the notion of resource
>>>>>     (PROV-ISSUE-1),
>>>>>     one of the concepts identified in the charter as core to a
>>>>>     provenance
>>>>>     data model. It would be good to discuss the notion of derivation.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Do we agree with the illustration of derivation [1]:
>>>>>     in the example, chart c1 is a derivation of data set d1.
>>>>>     Are there other interesting illustrations?
>>>>>
>>>>>     Is derivation relating resources/resource 
>>>>> representations/resource
>>>>>     representation states?
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>     Luc
>>>>>
>>>>>     [1] http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On 05/20/2011 08:07 AM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker
>>>>>     wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept
>>>>>         'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]
>>>>>
>>>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/7
>>>>>
>>>>>         Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>>         On product: Provenance Terminology
>>>>>
>>>>>         The Provenance WG charter identifies the concept
>>>>>         'Derivation' as a core concept of the provenance interchange
>>>>>         language to be standardized (see
>>>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter).
>>>>>
>>>>>         What term do we adopt for the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>         How do we define the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>         Where does concept 'Derivation' appear in ProvenanceExample?
>>>>>         Which provenance query requires the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>
>>>>>         Wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     --     Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>     Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>>>>     University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>>>>     Southampton SO17 1BJ               email:
>>>>>     l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>>>>     United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Wednesday, 8 June 2011 10:04:21 GMT

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