minutes for Jan 20, 2015

https://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-pf-minutes.html




- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
28 Jan 2015


See also: IRC log


Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
      Janina
Scribe
      joanie, fesch
Contents
      Topics
         1.	preview agenda with items from two minutes
         2.	Previous Meeting Minutes
            https://www.w3.org/2015/01/21-pf-minutes.html
         3.	Actions Review (Specs)
            http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/open
         4.	new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html#tr_LCWD
         5.	Community Groups http://www.w3.org/community/groups/
         6.	CSS Composite -- Action-1558
         7.	ARIA.Next Items; AAP; AAPI; D-Pub; ARIA; SVG
      Summary of Action Items



<trackbot> Date: 28 January 2015


<janina> agenda: this


preview agenda with items from two minutes


<scribe> scribenick: fesch


<Gottfried> Gottfried: JTC1 SC35 meeting last week in Copenhagen. Standards
from the former JTC1 Special Working Group on Accessibility (SWG-A) are
being transferred to SC35 now, including the user needs summary and
standards inventory. Also, SC35 has requested to have WAI-ARIA standardized
as an additional part of 13066.


Previous Meeting Minutes https://www.w3.org/2015/01/21-pf-minutes.html


last week minutes should show Gottfired sent regrets


RESOLUTION: publish minutes with above edit


Actions Review (Specs) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/open


reviewing actions


action 1557


action-1557


<trackbot> action-1557 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate creating a w3c
bugzilla bot -- due 2015-02-25 -- OPEN


<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1557


action-1558


<trackbot> action-1558 -- Fred Esch to Review compositing and blending
level 1 http://www.w3.org/tr/2015/cr-compositing-1-20150113/ -- due
2015-01-28 -- OPEN


<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1558


<joanie> scribe: joanie


<fesch> lol


<fesch> scribe: fesch


new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html#tr_LCWD


make agenda item to clear up actions


Community Groups http://www.w3.org/community/groups/


<JF> suggest adding ACTION ITEMS cleanout to next week's agenda


<JF> www.w3.org/community/groups/#exploresemdata


color blind community formed in November....


color blind community has Michael C and Doug S.


CSS Composite -- Action-1558


action-1558


<trackbot> action-1558 -- Fred Esch to Review compositing and blending
level 1 http://www.w3.org/tr/2015/cr-compositing-1-20150113/ -- due
2015-01-28 -- OPEN


<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1558


<joanie> scribe: joanie


FE: There are related notes in the action.
... CSS allows colors with alpha values.
... If you have an alpha value of less than 1, the rendered contrast is
further reduced.
... But in the calculation, it doesn't use alpha.
... So if the colors only differ by alpha, the rendered colors will be
different, but the contrast calculated by the WAI contrast formula will
remain the same.
... This impacts how you test with color contrast.


JN: But you test the rendered contrast.


<JF> http://leaverou.github.io/contrast-ratio/


JF: The above tool allows for contrast ratio testing.
... That tool reports back a range.
... An option is to grab an image and analyse that.
... But you have multiple issues: foreground/background, opacity layers in
the middle to impact contrast.
... So now there's three colors, not two, that you have to take into
account.


JN: What I do is remove the text from the rendered display, take a
screenshot of the background, and use the most commonly occurring one.
... So it is possible to create tools to test for these issues.


JF: Whether or not the W3C wants to look at creating such a tool, or wait
for a third party, is a question.


JN: I thought the tool you were talking about takes a range. That, to me,
is not all that useful.


JF: Yes, it's a useful hinting tool; not for compliance testing.


JS: I'm hearing one recommendation from Fred's action, namely asking if the
W3C should host a color-contrast testing tool.
... I've not heard any suggested edits to the spec yet.
... I'm on advisory committees where people have done studies where these
sorts of issues have come up.
... Do we want to ask for the ability to kill transparency entirely?
... Similarly, do we want to make it possible for users to disable
gradiants?


FE: I do suggest we change the spec.
... So people cannot just say, "I did the check and calculated it."
... Also, compliance tools may use the spec.
... Floating dialogs that pop up and are semi-opaque, are another problem.
... We're not going to tell CSS they cannot have transparent colors.


<Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask about gradients and about disallowing
transparency/gradients


<Zakim> JF, you wanted to say that suggesting "Killing alpha-transparency
and gradients is a fools errand"


JF: Venturing down the path is a losing battle.


JS: I was proposing it would be users who could disable it.


JF: (Stands by his opinion)


CS: To Fred, are you talking about the 4.5 contrast ratio?


FE: Yes, and the 7.5 one.


CS: What's wrong with it?


FE: It does not use an alpha value.


CS: This equation is really popular, so I think we need to update it to
consider alpha.


JS: As well as multiple levels, based on what John is saying.


JN: I don't think it's worth it. We're not going to be able to cover all
possible scenarios.


<fesch> the formula does not use alpha values, it needs to


JN: You should not just use the colors stated in the background.


JS: I'm not talking about author requirements, or banning gradiants.
... They're cool. There are better ways to use them. There's the
possibility of testing tools added to W3C.
... I'm just asking if it's reasonable or possible for enabling the *user*
to disable the gradiants and transparency.


CS: In response to James' comment, the formula is what gets used.
... Text may be skimmed around. So I don't think notes are going to solve
this problem.
... Also, I think some of the gradiants and things go away in Windows's
high contrast so it's technically feasible.


JF: I tend to agree with Cynthia.
... There's already algorithms for alpha blending.
... So the only real change would be to add the background and middleground
and do the blending to arrive at the final color.
... Right now we need a tool to accomplish what we're doing visually.


JN: If you could do a formula, I'd be for it.
... You don't know what's behind it. The background could be an image.
... The only thing you can rely upon is what's rendered.


CS: Good point.
... The formula was based on research Greg V directed. Perhaps we could
check with him to see who worked on that.
... If so, maybe we can convince him to do an update.


JS: I will follow up on that.


JN: The formula might be in the normative part of WCAG.


JS: We'll try to avoid changing anything normative.


CS: I think you're right, James. I think it normative.


FE: The formula is very important. If nothing else, for automated testing
tools, at least to flag possible issues.


<JF> ACTION: Janina to contact Greb V re: research on color contrast
calculations due Feb. 11 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-pf-minutes.html#action01]


<trackbot> Created ACTION-1571 - Contact greb v re: research on color
contrast calculations due feb. 11 [on Janina Sajka - due 2015-02-04].


FE: So we really need to make sure the formula addresses this.


JS: I think we all agree manual testing is no longer good enough.


<JF> ACTION-1571 due 2015-02-11


<trackbot> Set ACTION-1571 Contact greb v re: research on color contrast
calculations due feb. 11 due date to 2015-02-11.


JS: We know that background images matter. If the browsers can provide a
means for us to take that into account it would be useful.
... We seem to agree that the W3C should consider hosting a testing tool
for this.


CS: I'd would caution on the W3C creating a tester. There are already
plenty of checkers out there.


<JF> ACTION: Cynthia to look at the possibility of using Browser code for
alpha transparency checking due 2014-02-11 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-pf-minutes.html#action02]


<trackbot> Created ACTION-1572 - Look at the possibility of using browser
code for alpha transparency checking due 2014-02-11 [on Cynthia Shelly -
due 2015-02-04].


JS: I'm still not clear if we need to say anything to CSS.


FE: I don't think there's anything for us to say to CSS.
... I think we need to be sure our standards keep up with reality.


JF: This really should include the WCAG technique folks.
... I don't think we have techniques for this yet.
... I'm not sure if Andrew, Josh, and others are looking at this.


JN: We're not actively working on this at the moment. But yes we should
raise it.
... A more pressing issue is how do you determine what the background color
is when it varies?


(Group discusses "bad pixels")


JN: I have an algorithm, but I don't know if it's sufficient.


CS: Perhaps we can talk to Greg about this.


FE: CSS has formulas for what comes out (as RGBA value).
... So you might be able to calculate the contrast from that.


JS: Maybe the spec should include language about insufficient contrast.


CS: That sounds like something we could add to the formula.


FE: The compositing math is there.


JN: If you have two or more flat colors, you can do it from the algorithm,
that works. But that's not what happens in the real world.


<JF> +1 to James' point


CS: I think there's two pieces: Determining how many "bad pixels" is too
many; transparency of two solid colors, combined together.


JS: Status of this spec?


FE: I thought this week it was going into CR.
... This is reality. We cannot do anything with the CSS spec, it's a matter
of what we need to do.
... I don't think we want to recommend anything added to the CSS spec.


CS: Should we recommend referencing WCAG?


JS: We need to have a follow-up discussion on this: To what extent do we
want to push this?
... WCAG is presumed to apply to all specs.
... Let's touch on this topic next week.
... Thanks to Fred for the review!


ARIA.Next Items; AAP; AAPI; D-Pub; ARIA; SVG


JS: We're moving to publishing working drafts in February when Michael
returns.


<fesch> rssagent, make loogs


<fesch> rssagent, make logs


<fesch> rssagent, draft minutes


Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Cynthia to look at the possibility of using Browser code for
alpha transparency checking due 2014-02-11 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-pf-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Janina to contact Greb V re: research on color contrast
calculations due Feb. 11 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-pf-minutes.html#action01]

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.140 (CVS log)
$Date: 2015-01-28 18:04:45 $






                                                              
                                                              
                    Regards,                     Fred         
                                                              
                   Fred Esch                                  
       Accessibility, Watson Innovations                      
    AARB Complex Visualization Working Group                  
                     Chair                                    
            W3C SVG A11y Task Force                           
                IBM Watson Group