Re: minutes: June 9, 2014 WAI PF ARIA Caucus

Alex, Be sure to check the discussion related to selected/checked. Someone mentioned that you may be working on this implementation, now.


On Jun 9, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Draft minutes are posted at the following URL and follow my signature in plain text. 
> 
> http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html 
> 
> Matt King
> IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
> I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
> IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
> Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
> mattking@us.ibm.com 
> W3C <http://www.w3.org/> 
> 
> 
>   - DRAFT - 
> 
> 
>   Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 
>   09 Jun 2014 
> 
> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-irc> 
> 
> 
>     Attendees 
> 
> Present 
>     +1.603.882.aaaa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, jcraig, Joseph_Scheuhammer, 
>     +1.541.678.aabb, Matt, Cynthia_Shelly, James_Nurthen 
> Regrets 
> Chair 
>     Rich 
> Scribe 
>     Matt 
> 
> 
>     Contents 
> 
>   * Topics <#agenda> 
>      1. ARIA 1.1 draft of document status <#item01> 
>      2. Implementation guide <#item02> 
>   * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
> <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2014 
> 
> <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus 
> 
> <richardschwerdtfeger> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0035.html 
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0035.html> 
> 
> <clown> richardschwerdtfeger: the history of changes to the spec: 
> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commits/June_2014_TR/spec 
> 
> <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Matt 
> 
> <richardschwerdtfeger> 
> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/June_2014_TR/spec/aria.html 
> 
> 
>       ARIA 1.1 draft of document status 
> 
> RS: posinset and setsize for tabs should be called out since people have 
> been asking 
> 
> <richardschwerdtfeger> RS: in the Status of This Document 
> 
> JC: Alex has brought concerns with describedat; concerns I share. So I 
> added editorial note to that section. 
> 
> <clown> just in case it's relevant, the change log for the spec: 
> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/June_2014_TR/spec/aria.html#changelog 
> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/June_2014_TR/spec/aria.html#changelog> 
> 
> <jcraig> 
> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat 
> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat> 
> 
> <jcraig> Req of concern: User agents should provide a device-independent 
> mechanism to allow a user to navigate the user agent to content 
> referenced by the @aria-describedat attribute. User agents should also 
> provide a device-independent mechanism to return the user's focus from 
> the descriptive content view to the original content view. For example, 
> a user agent may provide access to the document or document fragment 
> referenced by the the @aria-describedat attribute in a 
> 
> <jcraig> contextual menu associated with the object. 
> 
> <jcraig> JC 2014-06-03. The previous paragraph may be at-risk. 
> Implementors from Mozilla, Google, and Apple have expressed concern over 
> the RFC-2119 "should" requirement above: If the statement remains as-is, 
> @aria-describedat would break the ARIA pattern to not affect mainstream 
> UI. Dominic M. mentioned that if this patterned changed, developers may 
> become more "suspicious of ARIA and not want to apply simple 
> accessibility bug fixes without worrying about the implications 
> 
> <jcraig> for their design." Alex S. said, UI-based requirements "should 
> be rather part of HTML than ARIA." 
> 
> JC: Concern is that the is the first ARIA requirement that modifies user 
> experience. 
> 
> RS: this is a should, not a must. 
> 
> JC: It is a concern if it is a should. we could change it to a MAY. 
> 
> CS: I agree this is a first for ARIA; I believe it is a good change. 
> ... Perhaps it should even be a MUST. 
> 
> RS: Cynthia, can you get input from the IE team. 
> 
> JC: We have no plans to implement the UI piece of this in webkit. 
> 
> CS: I would like to add some other content to the editorial note that 
> reflects other views. 
> 
> RS: I see this as very likely showing up in some epub readers. 
> 
> <richardschwerdtfeger> RS: seeing the Tie between Readium, IDPF, and the 
> Diagram project 
> 
> JC: With SVG, we can now imbed accessible descriptions both in vector 
> and raster images and make them directly accessible without longdesc or 
> describedat. 
> 
> CS: I will give content to James today to put in the note. 
> 
> <richardschwerdtfeger> *ACTION:* Cynthia Get feedback on use of ARIA to 
> drive UI changes in the browser as a “SHOULD” from the IE team [recorded 
> in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action01] 
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-1451 - Get feedback on use of aria to drive ui 
> changes in the browser as a “should” from the ie team [on Cynthia Shelly 
> - due 2014-06-16]. 
> 
> <jcraig> action-1451: 
> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat 
> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat> 
> 
> <trackbot> Notes added to action-1451 Get feedback on use of aria to 
> drive ui changes in the browser as a “should” from the ie team. 
> 
> 
>       Implementation guide 
> 
> Joseph: aaria-checked removed from option; now there is some pushback 
> and I didn't make the change to the guide 
> ... so now guide and mapping may be out of sync 
> ... this is for situations where selections and checked are orthoganal 
> 
> BG: there is a windows component on msdn where for checkable listbox 
> 
> <bgaraventa1979> Win UI equiv 
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.windows.forms.checkedlistbox(v=vs.110).aspx 
> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.windows.forms.checkedlistbox(v=vs.110).aspx> 
> 
> Joanie: If there is nothing definitely prohibiting selection and check 
> from being separate, then we would need to support it. Even if it is not 
> good design. 
> 
> <joanie> 
> http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm 
> <http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm> 
> 
> Discussion of JQS UI 
> 
> <jamesn> 
> http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm 
> <http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm> 
> 
> <joanie> 
> http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm 
> <http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm> 
> 
> RS: We are still looking for use cases where check and selection are 
> independent and have spearate meanings. 
> 
> MK: There could be use cases where checking refers to something like 
> setting a preference and selection is selection for an operation. 
> 
> JC: That could be done with a grid where the element that controls 
> selection is separate. 
> ... we can use checked on menuitemradio 
> 
> RS: this change is not for menuitems 
> ... Is it for treeitem? 
> 
> JC: treeitem is really no different from option. 
> 
> RS: we might break some things in trees; need to investigate. 
> 
> CS: What is motiviation for change? 
> 
> JC: For validation to avoid using the wrong state. Checked and selected 
> are not equivalent and an autor error can make things not work correctly. 
> ... one example is radio buttons 
> 
> RS: Is it removed from implementation guide? 
> 
> Joseph: it is still in. I was prepared to remove but have not done it. 
> ... Alex plans to ignore aria-checked on option. 
> 
> JC: WebKit does as well. 
> 
> <bgaraventa1979> +q 
> 
> JC: aria-checked was in the list of supported states for option because 
> of inheritence but it didn't carry any meaning in so is ignored. 
> 
> BG: what about partially checked 
> 
> CS: this is common in setup for windows programs 
> 
> <jcraig> screen shot 
> http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/ff956194.Waldman_Figure1_hires(en-us 
> <http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/ff956194.Waldman_Figure1_hires(en-us>,MSDN.10).jpg 
> 
> <jcraig> mixed: http://i.technet.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC562743.png 
> 
> <joanie> http://csharp.net-informations.com/gui/cs-checkedlistbox.htm 
> 
> Joanie: this example with days of the week has some partially checked 
> items in a listbox 
> ... Tuesday is partially checked. 
> 
> JC: propose that we remove selected from radio and checkbox but leave 
> checked on option 
> 
> <jcraig> add checked back to option, which will inherit to treeitem 
> 
> <jcraig> leave radio and checkbox unchanged in the spec (no longer has 
> aria-selected in aria 1.1) 
> 
> *RESOLUTION: in spec, restore aria-checked to option role. In 
> implementation guide, remove optional mapping of aria-selected from 
> radio and menuitemradio.* 
> 
> <jcraig> *ACTION:* jcraig to add aria-checked back to option, and let it 
> inherit to treeitem [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action02] 
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-1452 - Add aria-checked back to option, and 
> let it inherit to treeitem [on James Craig - due 2014-06-16]. 
> 
> <joanie> :) 
> 
> <clown> 
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=202 
> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=202> 
> 
> <jcraig> *ACTION:* joseph to remove optional text about mapping 
> aria-checked on checkbox/radio [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action03] 
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-1453 - Remove optional text about mapping 
> aria-checked on checkbox/radio [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-06-16]. 
> 
> <jcraig> action-1452? action-1453? 
> 
> <jcraig> action-1452? 
> 
> <trackbot> action-1452 -- James Craig to Add aria-checked back to 
> option, and let it inherit to treeitem -- due 2014-06-16 -- OPEN 
> 
> <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1452 
> 
> <jcraig> action-1453? 
> 
> <trackbot> action-1453 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Remove optional text 
> about mapping aria-checked on checkbox/radio -- due 2014-06-16 -- OPEN 
> 
> <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1453 
> 
> <joanie> jcraig: link please? 
> 
> <clown> #aapi 
> 
> <joanie> It's jcraig's birthday? Happy Birthday!! 
> 
> zakim bye 
> 
> <jcraig> happy belated to james n, too 
> 
> 
>     Summary of Action Items 
> 
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Cynthia Get feedback on use of ARIA to drive UI 
> changes in the browser as a “SHOULD” from the IE team [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action01] 
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* jcraig to add aria-checked back to option, and let it 
> inherit to treeitem [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action02] 
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* joseph to remove optional text about mapping 
> aria-checked on checkbox/radio [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action03] 
>   
> [End of minutes] 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> version 
> 1.138 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>) 
> $Date: 2014-06-09 18:28:50 $ 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
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> Found Scribe: Matt 
> Default Present: +1.603.882.aaaa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, jcraig, Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.541.678.aabb, Matt, Cynthia_Shelly, James_Nurthen 
> Present: +1.603.882.aaaa Rich_Schwerdtfeger jcraig Joseph_Scheuhammer +1.541.678.aabb Matt Cynthia_Shelly James_Nurthen 
> Found Date: 09 Jun 2014 
> Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html 
> People with action items: cynthia jcraig joseph 
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