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Re: Please clarify ARIA definition of "grid" role

From: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 20:08:02 -0700
Cc: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, Steve Faulkner <sfaulkner@paciellogroup.com>, public-pfwg-comments@w3.org
Message-Id: <8659FD0C-0C44-4F27-87F8-E1FCA94E9A9E@apple.com>
To: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
On Aug 31, 2010, at 3:10 PM, Maciej Stachowiak wrote:

> On Aug 31, 2010, at 2:30 PM, James Craig wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 31, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
>> 
>>> On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:45 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>>>> If we are going to defined the table element in terms of ARIA semantics whereby our define of grid one one of an interactive table, then we have only two choices:
>>>> 
>>>> - take our first proposal which states that Table has no default ARIA semantics, which is true.
>>>> - If we are going to define Table in terms of ARIA semantics then we would need to define table in terms of a static non-interactive, non-navigable ARIA grid. The HTML specification does not state that a table is not non-interactive nor does it state that it can't be me made navigable. The only thing it states that a <table> can't be used for is layout (which I disagree with and is inconsistent with worldwide web usage of table). Yet, a table allows an author to apply script to it to change its functionality. 
>>>> 
>>> I think the first option is superior. If <table> does not satisfy the "grid" role by default, then it should just have no role. I don't think it's helpful to say it is kind of a grid but not really.
>> 
>> This still isn't right. The BaseConcept of grid is "HTML table", and the Required Owned Elements for grid are:
>> 	• row
>> 	• rowgroup → row
>> 
>> Last November at the F2F, we added the rowgroup role specifically so that ARIA grids could have role symmetry with the HTML table child elements thead, tbody, and tfoot. 
>> 
>> 	rowgroup http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#rowgroup
>> 	BaseConcept: HTML thead, tfoot, and tbody	
>> 	Note: This role does not differentiate between types of row groups (e.g. thead vs. tbody), but an issue has been raised for WAI-ARIA 2.0.
>> 
>> One of the reasons we needed role symmetry was due to the complexities of presentation inheritance with host language implicit semantics.
>> 
>> From the spec: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#presentation
> 
> Would this imply that the "grid" definition *should* cover non-interactive presentations of tabular data, such as HTML <table>?

That's my understanding, but it's obvious we have some differing opinions in the group. We'll need to discuss this in a Working Group call before we can answer definitively.

> That is fine by me. I just want the ARIA spec and the HTML5 spec to be in sync on this.

Agreed. Thanks.

> The thing I didn't like about Rich's proposal is that it would make HTML <table> be a "grid but not really". I don't think that is a useful state. Either it's a grid or it's not.
> 
> I have no personal stake in the question of whether it is actually a grid. I just want it to be one or the other.
Received on Wednesday, 1 September 2010 03:08:36 GMT

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