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Formatting of the minutes

From: Jack Jansen <Jack.Jansen@cwi.nl>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 22:32:52 +0100
Cc: <public-media-fragment@w3.org>
Message-Id: <47A0DCD1-A47C-483C-A071-4FF864D7BEA4@cwi.nl>
To: erik mannens <erik.mannens@ugent.be>
I'm not sure I like the new formatting of the minutes: it seems all some (but not all) of the unofficial stuff going on has disappeared. Unfortunately, this makes the bits that remain completely unintelligible...

On 24 feb 2010, at 12:20, erik mannens wrote:

> Dear all,
>  
>  
> The minutes of this week's telecon are available for review at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html (and in text below). Thanks Davy for stepping in as Scribe.
>  
>  
> Sincere greetings,
>  
> Erik Mannens
>  
> Project Manager
>  
> Gaston Crommenlaan 8 bus 201
> B-9050 Ledeberg-Ghent, Belgium
>  
> T: +32 9 331 49 93
> F: +32 9 331 48 96
> M: +32 473 27 44 17
> E: erik.mannens@ugent.be
> W: http://www.mmlab.be/emannens
>  
>  
> http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be
>  
> ---
> Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
> 
> 24 Feb 2010
> 
> Agenda
> 
> See also: IRC log
> 
> Attendees
> 
> Present
> yves, michael, davy, erik, silvia
> Regrets
> raphael
> Chair
> erik
> Scribe
> erik, davy
> Contents
> 
> 	 Topics
> 		 Admin
> 		 3. SPECIFICATION:
> 		 4. TEST CASES
> 		 3.1 Media Fragment URI syntax
> 	 Summary of Action Items
> <trackbot> Date: 24 February 2010
> 
> Admin
> 
> <davy> scribenick: erik
> 
> Accept the minutes at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html
> 
> <davy> +1
> 
> +1
> 
> <silvia> +1
> 
> <Yves> +1
> 
> <davy> scribenick: davy
> 
> Erik: charter extension: everything fine, but milestones need to be adjusted
> 
> <scribe> ACTION: raphael to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01]
> 
> <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - raphael
> 
> <raphael> ah, thanks :-)
> 
> 3. SPECIFICATION:
> 
> <raphael> ACTION: troncy to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Adjust the milestones in the charter [on Raphal Troncy - due 2010-03-03].
> 
> <raphael> ... actually on the group front page since we cannot change the charter, but the charter refers to the group home page for the changes
> 
> <erik> action-143?
> 
> <trackbot> ACTION-143 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to move 5.1.5 into a new section -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN
> 
> <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/143
> 
> <erik> action-144?
> 
> <trackbot> ACTION-144 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to move the section 5.1.1 to the top -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN
> 
> <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/144
> 
> <silvia> not done yet
> 
> <silvia> neither that one
> 
> <silvia> I promised it for F2F
> 
> <erik> ok, actions still going on
> 
> erik: status about changes in the header syntax?
> 
> yves: made modifications in the wiki regarding philip's remarks
> ... only do it in the spec if we switch back to ABNF
> 
> jack: I'm fine with either ABNF or EBNF
> 
> yves: I have tools for ABNF only
> 
> jack: no reason why we switched to EBNF, I don't see an advantage to use EBNF
> 
> <silvia> I don't mind either - if you prefer to switch back to ABNF, go for it
> 
> <silvia> I think Philip found it easier to write, but that doesn't have to influence everyone else
> 
> jack: if Yves prefers ABNF, then I also prefer ABNF
> 
> yves: will continue in ABNF
> ... also create a section where all the ABNF is located together
> ... having a single view of the grammar
> 
> erik: propose to use ABNF to represent the grammar
> 
> <jackjansen> PROPOSAL: dtddadada??? Ok, +1 :-)
> 
> <jackjansen> I know...
> 
> PROPOSAL: use ABNF to represent the grammar, because of the existence of tools
> 
> <erik> +1
> 
> <mhausenblas> +1
> 
> +1
> 
> <jackjansen> +1
> 
> RESOLUTION: ABNF will be used to represent the grammar
> 
> yves: a-126 is still ongoing
> ... should be able to do it today
> 
> <silvia> while you're at it, can you look at writing ABNF for the HTTP headers, too?
> 
> <Yves> yep
> 
> <Yves> that's the plan
> 
> erik: a-135 is still ongoing
> 
> jack: a-137 is also ongoing
> 
> <silvia> see note in 5.2.2 and 5.2.3
> 
> issue-5?
> 
> <trackbot> ISSUE-5 -- Handling spatial cropping requires information at client-side -- OPEN
> 
> <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/5
> 
> erik: we must asap reach LC
> ... if this is only with the temporal dimension, so be it
> 
> <jackjansen> silvia, can you re-raise in AOB?
> 
> 4. TEST CASES
> 
> <mhausenblas> ACTION-118?
> 
> <trackbot> ACTION-118 -- Michael Hausenblas to come up with individual 'normal' test cases (+/- 20) -- due 2009-10-07 -- OPEN
> 
> <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/118
> 
> <raphael> I second silvia question, re: quotes in the syntax
> 
> <raphael> Silvia, please, write your comments not in /me
> 
> <silvia> re: ABNF - are we dropping the quotes on the fragment values?
> 
> <silvia> just FYI - the "s" in npt dimension has already been dropped in spec
> 
> <jackjansen> silvia, we first continue with 4, then get to 3.5
> 
> michael: a-118 continues untill next week
> 
> <mhausenblas> ACTION-108?
> 
> <trackbot> ACTION-108 -- Michael Hausenblas to add the missing test cases in corrib -- due 2009-11-16 -- OPEN
> 
> <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/108
> 
> <mhausenblas> close ACTION-108
> 
> <trackbot> ACTION-108 Add the missing test cases in corrib closed
> 
> <mhausenblas> http://ld2sd.deri.org/corrib/
> 
> <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0019.html
> 
> michael: we can review them one by one
> 
> <silvia> indeed - I was going to ask if people had had the time to check out those test cases for the time dimension
> 
> jack: are the test cases already in a state that we can see that all the boundary cases can be seen
> 
> <silvia> can we focus on time dimension for now and check there that we have all the boundary cases?
> 
> <erik> michael: focus is on temporal dimension only
> 
> michael: not totally sure, there might be at least a couple of test cases that are not yet covered
> 
> jack: I will look at it
> 
> <silvia> in my list I abstracted away from concrete values into t=a,b
> 
> <silvia> then I looked at the values that a and b can take compared to each other and compared to start, end of file
> 
> <silvia> in this way, I tried capturing all the possibilities
> 
> <silvia> these are all no errors:
> 
> <silvia> * Non-errors: b>=a
> 
> <silvia> t=a,b -> 200: set playback to a-b
> 
> <silvia> t=a, -> 200: set playback to a-end
> 
> <silvia> t=,b -> 200: set playback to start-b
> 
> <silvia> t=a,b with a=b -> 200: set playback to a
> 
> <silvia> t=a,b with a<start -> 200: set playback to start-b
> 
> <silvia> t=a,b with a>end -> 200: set playback to end
> 
> <silvia> t=a,b with b>end -> 200: set playback to a-end
> 
> <silvia> t=a,b with b<start -> 200: set playback to start
> 
> michael: in the F2F, we should make a final decision regarding the test cases of temporal fragments
> 
> jack: I missed b > end
> 
> <mhausenblas> Michael: will add t=a,b with b>end and t=a,b with b<start
> 
> jack: also miss b<a
> 
> <jackjansen> silvia, both
> 
> <silvia> it's in the list above
> 
> <mhausenblas> we're looking at corrib ATM, but jackjansen referred to in general
> 
> <silvia> b>end is, the other is in an error list
> 
> <silvia> * non-existent
> 
> <silvia> example: t=b,a with b>a (e.g. t=20,10)
> 
> <silvia> -> 200: ignore fragment
> 
> michael: it's easy to add/edit test cases in corrib
> ... everyone can do it
> 
> <silvia> and I also have this one that we haven't had before:
> 
> <silvia> * Validity errors: value cannot be parsed for dimension
> 
> <silvia> example: t=asdf
> 
> <silvia> -> 200: ignore fragment (retrieve full resource, but with this adapted URL)
> 
> <silvia> note: browsers already do this
> 
> <silvia> further, I think we need to change TC0002
> 
> <silvia> * TC0002: empty time segment - npt (see also above)
> 
> <silvia> examples: t=0,0 ; t=3,3
> 
> <silvia> -> 200: retrieve whatever the browser needs to set up playback and
> 
> <silvia> set the playback position to the offset
> 
> <silvia> NOTE: this is different to what we currently have at
> 
> <silvia> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases
> 
> <mhausenblas> silivia, you're aware of that you can edit TC in corrib yourself?
> 
> <scribe> ACTION: Jack to identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for temporal fragments [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for temporal fragments [on Jack Jansen - due 2010-03-03].
> 
> <silvia> I thought we are discussing here whether we agree on those test cases and their results
> 
> <silvia> the reason for my questions / list was that I wanted these in the spec as well as in corrib, so developers can refer to it
> 
> <mhausenblas> silvia, I'll change the ownership re TC10-17 to you soon
> 
> <erik> michael: 'contributor' = 'one who raised the TC'
> 
> <silvia> hmm, according to http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases they are multi dimensional - wasn't really focused on that yet
> 
> <mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to add all MF WG members to corrib [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Add all MF WG members to corrib [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
> 
> <mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to add a copy TC functionality [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-148 - Add a copy TC functionality [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
> 
> <mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - Come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
> 
> jack: if we change the syntax, then someone needs to be responsible to modify the related test cases
> 
> <mhausenblas> Michael: there is also an issue tracker for corrib in case you find a bug or want to request a feature
> 
> <mhausenblas> ... http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/corrib/issues/?status=new&status=open
> 
> 3.1 Media Fragment URI syntax
> 
> erik: do we keep the quotes around track names and ids?
> 
> <Yves> p
> 
> <erik> also see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ublic-media-fragment/2010Feb/0071.html
> 
> jack: percent escapes of ? and & seems to work in the browser
> ... which indicates that we do need quotes (on condition that we have percent escaping)
> 
> <erik> ... reinvestigation is still needed!
> 
> <silvia> which philip introduced into the spec
> 
> <silvia> oh!
> 
> <erik> jack: syntax of ? and # should be the same
> 
> jack: we should first investigate how percent encoding works
> 
> <erik> jack: what about client vs serverside ... should be the same at both sides
> 
> <mhausenblas> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.1
> 
> <mhausenblas> and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.4
> 
> yves: before doing percent-encoding, the url is split up
> 
> <jackjansen> If I compare section 2.1 to what I posted to the mailing list then it seems the behaviousr I saw is wrong.
> 
> <erik> yves: URI-syntax is not clear on what should be returned on client or server .... therefore no ambiguity if we use quotes
> 
> <jackjansen> 2.4 states that even more clearly
> 
> <silvia> according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent-encoding, last section, only the names and values of a CGI query are encoded
> 
> yves: quotes remove ambiguity
> 
> jack: so youtube is not compliant to RFC3986?
> 
> <jackjansen> This works: http://www.youtube.com/watch%3fv=FwJduPtCvSM%26feature=rec-r2-2r-1-HM
> 
> <jackjansen> and it shouldn't
> 
> <mhausenblas> my friend re URIs is http://www.websitedev.de/temp/rfc3986-check.html.gz
> 
> <jackjansen> So, it seems that rfc3986 isn't followed by at least one major site
> 
> <mhausenblas> lets you check stuff quite nicely
> 
> <silvia> I think the "Under normal circumstances" part is important
> 
> <jackjansen> ref?
> 
> <silvia> I think in essence rfc3986 lets every server do what it wants
> 
> <jackjansen> got it
> 
> <silvia> link above - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.4
> 
> <silvia> but it suggests parsing before percent encoding
> 
> <silvia> to make it easier for the server to determine the components
> 
> <silvia> doesn't stop a server from trying to interpret a url that has more than just the components url encoded
> 
> <silvia> I think we can safely prescribe url encoding the way Philip has currently done it and it follows section 2.4
> 
> <jackjansen> I am not sure I agree. I am not convinced that we can remove the quotes for queries.
> 
> <silvia> that is a different matter altoghether, I think
> 
> <silvia> what problem do the quotes solve?
> 
> <jackjansen> escaping ampersands
> 
> <jackjansen> eric??
> 
> <silvia> I seem to remember having had a problem where the quotes introduced more confusion than helped, but cannot now find it
> 
> <silvia> anyway, I guess we're out of time :)
> 
> <scribe> ACTION: Erik to summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on the wiki [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on the wiki [on Erik Mannens - due 2010-03-03].
> 
> [adjourned]
> 
> <jackjansen> bye!
> 
> <silvia> thanks everyone!
> 
> <silvia> btw: we're only talking about quotes for track and id dimensions, right?
> 
> yup
> 
> <silvia> davy: is your implementation using quotes?
> 
> yes
> 
> Summary of Action Items
> 
> [NEW] ACTION: Erik to summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on the wiki [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07]
> [NEW] ACTION: Jack to identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for temporal fragments [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03]
> [NEW] ACTION: mhausenb to add a copy TC functionality [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05]
> [NEW] ACTION: mhausenb to add all MF WG members to corrib [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04]
> [NEW] ACTION: mhausenb to come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06]
> [NEW] ACTION: raphael to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01]
> [NEW] ACTION: troncy to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02]
>  
> [End of minutes]
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
> $Date: 2010/02/24 11:14:30 $
> Scribe.perl diagnostic output
> 
> [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
> This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
> Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
>  
> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>  
> Succeeded: s/silivia/silvia/
> Succeeded: s/p//
> Succeeded: s/don't/do/
> Succeeded: s/escaping/encoding/
> Found ScribeNick: erik
> Found ScribeNick: davy
> Inferring Scribes: erik, davy
> Scribes: erik, davy
> ScribeNicks: erik, davy
> Default Present: +0329331aaaa, mhausenblas, Yves, Erik&amp;Davy, +31.20.592.aabb, jackjansen, +329331aacc
> Present: yves michael davy erik silvia
> Regrets: raphael
> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0072.html
> Found Date: 24 Feb 2010
> Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html
> People with action items: erik jack mhausenb raphael troncy
>  
> [End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]
>  
>  

--
Jack Jansen, <Jack.Jansen@cwi.nl>, http://www.cwi.nl/~jack
If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman
Received on Saturday, 27 February 2010 21:33:33 GMT

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